reported Electric starter does not turn engine over (under specific circumstances)

[-0303-]

Fresh DCS install, no mods whatsoever. Made a 15 sec track. Spitfire is my absolute favorite. What I describe below is new behavior I'm quite certain. This bug is specifically about the electric starter, not the whole starting sequence.

Description.

1) Spawn Spitfire on airfield as "Takeoff from ramp". I.e., engine stopped and cold.

2) Flip open start and booster covers

3) Hit starter button and engine turns over.  Release starter button. Hit starter button again, propeller doesn't move.

This is what my short track shows.

Now the weirdness. This only happens when the first starter button press is very short (less than a second). If the first starter button press is longer, say 5 sec, it will not happen. Also, it will only happen once. Meaning, if I "Quit -> Fly again", it will not repeat.

The autostart sequence (Right Win + Home) seems to always work when applied after spawn. But ... if autostart is tried after a failed manual attempt (as in the track), autostart will not move the propeller either.

Modules:

[I-16]
[Normandy 1944 Map]
[WWII Assets Pack]
[Bf 109 K-4 Kurfurst]
[UH-1H Huey]
[F-86F Sabre]
[Flaming Cliffs 3]
[Spitfire LF Mk. IX]
[P-51D Mustang]

Free Mariana map NOT INSTALLED.

Version, latest as of today.

openbeta/2.7.16.28111/

Downloaded my track (above) and confirmed it runs as described.

Spitfire manual start fail.trk

Edited July 31, 2022 by -0303-

[LeCuvier]

On 7/29/2022 at 3:58 PM, -0303- said:

The autostart sequence (Right Win + Home) seems to always work when applied after spawn. But ... if autostart is tried after a failed manual attempt (as in the track), autostart will not move the propeller either.

Strange. Auto-Start does not work here. When the Start and Boost buttons are depressed, the engine starts and runs for just a few seconds, then stops.

Edit: this post can be ignored. My problem was caused by a mod.

Edited July 31, 2022 by LeCuvier

[-0303-]

4 hours ago, LeCuvier said:

Strange. Auto-Start does not work here. When the Start and Boost buttons are depressed, the engine starts and runs for just a few seconds, then stops.

Autostart works fine for me. If autostart  doesn't work at all for you, that's a different and much bigger issue probably for a separate thread.

Are you talking about autostart or manual start? Sounds like magnets are not switched on. The booster coil provides ignition while pressed. It would run just a few seconds after button being released.

Does the track work as I described?

Edited July 29, 2022 by -0303-

[LeCuvier]

On 7/29/2022 at 9:01 PM, -0303- said:

....Are you talking about autostart or manual start? ...

When I say "auto-start I mean auto-start. The magnetos are engaged and it's not a "much bigger issue" as the auto-start macros in all ther modules work perfectly.
I use the Cold Start mission in Instant Action, Caucasus map.
The auto-start for the Spit works sometimes but mostly not. The engine starts up, but then stutters and dies. I did a lot of experimenting and found that:
If I activate the wobble pump for a few cycles when the engine has started running and before the message comes up that says something like "activate the wobble pump...", then the engine does not die and everything goes just fine. The engine runs smoothly and I can fly the bird.
My layman's conclusion is, that the fuel pressure drops too much during engine start, and with my wobbling I maintain enough pressure until the fuel pump does its job.

Edit:
I have added a fair number of wobble cycles into the auto-start macro (in file "Macro_sequencies.lua") and now the auto-start macro is able to complete the start-up every time without my assistance.

Edit:
I have run a repair and backed out the additions to my "default.lua", and now the engine start works both manually and with auto-start.
It seems that one of my additions causes the fuel pressure to drop, and now I have a nice challenge to find what it is.
 

Edited July 31, 2022 by LeCuvier

[-0303-]

I've edited the title to be very specific. I also edited the top post language to be more specific. I'm only talking about the electric starter, not the whole starting sequence. This because my bug is different from LeCuvier's.

This bug is avoidable if knowing about it. It is also 100%  repeatable (and as such should be "easy" debuggable). Still curious if the track works the same for others? Meaning starter engine turns at first press and then doesn't at subsequent presses.

Also.  Years ago (and still for all I know), sometimes, after repair, the starter does not turn the engine over. Adding "ground power" (assuming empty battery) made no difference.

Posted about that years ago but it was unresolved. Maybe because it was hard to reliably repeat and make a track. Anyway, this new bug, also starter refusing to turn engine over,might be directly related to this old bug. With luck it could fix both.

On 7/30/2022 at 9:36 AM, LeCuvier said:

Edit:

I have run a repair and backed out the additions to my "default.lua", and now the engine start works both manually and with auto-start.
It seems that one of my additions causes the fuel pressure to drop, and now I have a nice challenge to find what it is.

Soo, self inflicted?

Edited July 31, 2022 by -0303-

[Jobediah]

Oddly, I had this same issue yesterday. I bumped the starter switch instead of holding it down and from that point on it refused to turn over the engine through multiple start attempts.

[LeCuvier]

2 hours ago, -0303- said:

Soo, self inflicted?

It would seems so, although I'm struggling to figure out what the problem is. "My bug" causes a drop in fuel pressure. I can do a manual start but I have to do many wobble cycles to make the "fuel low" light go off. I can also make the aut-start work by adding many wobble cycles. The easier work-around for both is to turn the fuel boost pump ON. I can turn it OFF when the engine start is completed.
So, definitely not the same bug.

Edit: I had made 2 minor changes to the file "clickabledata.lua" a long time ago. I found that in the meantime ED had made many changes to that file which were not reflected im my modified file. They had also fixed the issues that justified my changes. I restored the stock file and now the engine start works both manually and in auto-start. Especially the wobble pump has become much more effective so I no longer have a problem with fuel pressure.
I learned a lot about the Spit's start-up process. But I have to apologize for muddying the water in this thread.

Edited July 31, 2022 by LeCuvier

[LeCuvier]

@-0303-I ran your track and it showed what you described. I believe the mission is "Cold Start (and not "Takeoff from ramp").

Also, I can reproduce what you describe in the "Cold Start" mission. After pressing the "Start" button briefly that button no longer has any effect. Whether that's a bug, or just "how the system works", I don't know. But it might be correct behaviour. The button has a protective cover for a reason.
 

[-0303-]

It's not a DCS scripted mission. It's a single Spitfire placed in Batumi as "Takeoff from ramp" as opposed "Takeoff from runway" for example.

Can rename the track file "Spitfire manual start fail" to .miz extension to get the mission file I believe.

Could be correct behavior. Does a circuit burn out from a short touch? Not impossible I guess but does it make sense?

Edited July 31, 2022 by -0303-

[LeCuvier]

11 hours ago, -0303- said:

...Could be correct behavior. Does a circuit burn out from a short touch? Not impossible I guess but does it make sense?

 

I believe that the behaviour was intentionally programmed. Only a short button press in your scenario prevents a second start-up attempt. Otherwise you can have several engine starts in a mission.

[-0303-]

I don't get it?

I've always done multiple engine starts in a single mission I fly, land, shut off engine, restart and take off again (with or without repair). I did that just now (auto and manual).

DCS does not and is not programmed to prevent us from abusing the engine (or the electric starter) if that is what you're thinking about.

Why would the real thing differentiate between a less than a second starter push and a multiple second push?

 

 

[grafspee]

@-0303- I'm on same boat, this makes no sense for me, i would believe in stress protection which would cut out starter when used for long time, but this ? What would be the purpose ? 

[NineLine]

Thank guys, will take a look.

[NineLine]

Reproduced and reported, thanks all!