>>> TRACK IR at the rescue <<<

[rick123]

Have you ever heard of a EULA?

 

I (as a software author) can write a EULA that says that by clicking the AGREE button you sell your soul to me for the price of $1 and most people will probably click the button. :) The vast majority of all EULAs are "illegal" in many countries in the sense that some of their clauses simply don't hold when the matter is put to court.

[Winder]

I (as a software author) can write a EULA that says that by clicking the AGREE button you sell your soul to me for the price of $1 and most people will probably click the button. :) The vast majority of all EULAs are "illegal" in many countries in the sense that some of their clauses simply don't hold when the matter is put to court.

It's irrelevant how inane you could possibly make a EULA. Your example is unenforceable, misleading, pointless, and a complete red herring. It's very standard (and, I would submit, acceptable) practice to create a EULA that says, "Hey, you're using our brand new piece of technology. Hope you like it, because we're proud of it and worked hard to create it. But you know what? We're pretty decent people, so we'll risk the security of all our hard work in order to let you explore new and creative ways to use this stuff. We only request that you don't copy what we've done and distribute it to other people for free. It took us a while to make it, you see. Plus, this is our job, and how we feed our kids. Do you think that's fair? If so, and you agree to honor our request, please sign your name below."

 

See the difference?

[rick123]

It's very standard (and, I would submit, acceptable) practice to create a EULA that says ...

 

See the difference?

 

No, you've misunderstood me. Of course my example was exaggerated. What I meant to say is that almost all existing EULA in the majority of countries contain lots of unenforcable clauses. It would be nice if EULAs commonly contained niceties as you have suggested, but, sorry, that's just not true ;) (Don't believe me? Check out Facebooks EULA as a particularly entertaining example...)

 

Anyway, let's not get this into an argument. I suppose we can agree that people are not allowed to steal intellectual property (be it with or without an EULA). The question is just what constitutes intellectual property. AFAIK, protocol and interface specification without software patent don't (except for the copyright of the documents describing them, of course), but I might be wrong. :smartass:

[Winder]

No, you've misunderstood me. Of course my example was exaggerated. What I meant to say is that almost all existing EULA in the majority of countries contain lots of unenforcable clauses. It would be nice if EULAs commonly contained niceties as you have suggested, but, sorry, that's just not true ;) (Don't believe me? Check out Facebooks EULA as a particularly entertaining example...)

 

Anyway, let's not get this into an argument. I suppose we can agree that people are not allowed to steal intellectual property (be it with or without an EULA). The question is just what constitutes intellectual property. AFAIK, protocol and interface specification without software patent don't (except for the copyright of the documents describing them, of course), but I might be wrong. :smartass:

Sorry for coming off kinda snarky in my first response. I don't want to argue, either. ;) I do wish to disagree, though.

 

If there are text strings in the TrackIR software that are copyrighted, and someone elects to copy those strings in their own software without permission, are they not violating copyright? Some say that, according to 17 USC, interoperability purposes make them exempt. I would submit that this is irrelevant for two reasons:

 

First, FreeTrack is, essentially, built on the TrackIR interface. Sure, it has some UI tweaks and some other features built on top, but it uses the same foundation, function calls, etc. Ergo, it's not a competing product, but rather a counterfeit of the same product. Interoperability implies two different interfaces working together, not one trying to scavenge another.

 

Second, that USC provision applies to those that have an ownership claim at stake, which FreeTrack devs and users do not. (Kudos to Prophet for elaborating on this important point.) The FreeTrack devs don't own the copyrighted text strings... NaturalPoint does. FreeTrack users aren't claiming that they're trying to synchronize two products that they own (those being FT and TIR), only to have their interoperability efforts thwarted. I think it's fair to say that, almost universally, they are trying to establish interoperability with software that they do not own a license to (the TIR interface, which is made available for the purpose of supporting TIR hardware).

 

TrackIR users pay for the right to license the TrackIR interface in games with TrackIR hardware. FreeLoad users do not.

 

I will agree that many, and perhaps most, EULAs probably contain unenforceable demands. But, it's irrelevent. You have to evaluate on a case by case basis, and I think it's clear that, in the proper context, the requests that NP is apparently making are reasonable, enforceable, and totally normal.

[Winder]

Would CH stand by if I hacked their software to work with my Saitek that has really poor software? Doubt it.

Direct quote from the CH Control Manager Software EULA:

 

This End-User License Agreement (EULA) is a legal agreement between you and CH Products, Inc. (CH PRODUCTS) governing the use of the included software (SOFTWARE). It applies to all materials supplied in this package including utilities, drivers, documentation, associated media, and any accompanying printed materials.

 

Under the terms of this EULA, CH PRODUCTS grants you a non-exclusive license to use the software solely for it's intended purpose in conjunction with gaming devices manufactured by CH PRODUCTS. ANY OTHER USE OF THIS SOFTWARE IS PROHIBITED. These unauthorized uses include (but are not limited to):

 

1. Use of the SOFTWARE with equipment supplied by other manufacturers.

 

2. Disassembly or reverse engineering of the SOFTWARE.

 

3. Distribution of the SOFTWARE in any form without the specific written permission of CH PRODUCTS.

 

By installing, copying, or otherwise using the SOFTWARE or any part thereof, you agree to be legally bound by the terms of this EULA. If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, you must immediately cease all use of the SOFTWARE and remove it from your system.

(Emphasis added by me.)

 

How appalling of them. How anti-competitive. I, as an owner of both a Saitek and CH Products joystick (which is true), feel like my consumer rights have been violated.

 

:doh:

[sbern]

I wish we had a patent/copyright lawyer who could settle some of this stuff. Without that we're just going to go in circles... I think trying to copyright/trademark/whatever an API is impossible.

 

http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201801579

 

If you're familiar with WINE for linux, by the way, it basically does the same thing... provides it's own implementation of the Windows API. I'm sure Microsoft would have sued the pants off the WINE dev team if they thought they had any chance at all in court. I also don't hear many people crying about poor microsoft.

 

If I came to you criticizing someone who had put instructions for building your own car on the web and had maybe even posted up some code for electronic ignition control etc as being evil because now a bunch of freeloaders would be able to use the road systems that the major car companies had put so much work into getting the government to expand and improve upon without having to support them by buying their cars, you'd think I was nuts. I think the only real difference is the likeability of a smaller niche industry company vs. a Microsoft or a GM.

[aledmb]

...a bunch of freeloaders would be able to use the road systems that

the major car companies had put so much work into getting the

government to expand and improve upon without having to support

them by buying their cars...

 

premise: i user "their" road systems.

conclusion: i'm a freeloader!

 

that's what i meant from the beginning!

[Prophet]

For the sake of the community, and the companies who actually make something for the community, I think it all was very necessary.

 

But at least we were attacking a company and its policies, and not directly at people.

 

Maybe you should take your garbage elsewhere.

[Matlo]

Well, I know this thread has been taken off topic somewhat, it is interesting to me anyways...

 

I do not own TrackIR but I have recently installed Freetrack and modified my webcam (which in itself would be in disagreement of it's eula would it not?).

The setup works 'ok'. I presume TrackIR would be smoother etc etc but for a somewhat larger price.

 

I took for granted that the Freetrack team were not doing anything illegal but in fact were just entrepreneurial. But on looking at the arguments from both sides of the issue I feel I will have to reassess whether I use Freetrack or not. I am interested in what otheres think....

[aledmb]

...I think it all was very necessary.

man, looks like we'll never agree on something.

:smilewink:

[deviletk]

Great topic start. The rest could have found its way into another thread, really.

 

I want TIR as well and since i dont have soldering iron and not the free time i would like to have, i will have to wait until i have the money for it. It will be the most expensive hardware apart from my computer. Even my HOTAS cost half the price of a TIR, so its understandable that some go for cheaper solutions. And its nice to see initiatives like the thread starter. :)

[Prophet]

man, looks like we'll never agree on something.

:smilewink:

 

Just the same as I don't agree to pirating BS, even though it possible.

 

Unfortunately it is not as clear with FreeTrack only because it is not broadcast what they are really doing.

 

If someone is informed what they are actually doing, and they find it acceptable, then we will slowly lose the companies who actually make Flight Simming possible.

[Quarrion]

I'm surprised that 'Winder thinks I'm a FreeTrack developer just because I have criticized NaturalPoint's business practices. I'm a long-time FreeTrack and TrackIR user but I have absolutely no affiliation with either. The DCS compatibility problem drew my attention in the first place, I tried to contact FreeTrack developers, but they had not been very active and couldn't help. So I took it into my own hands to find the root of the problem, which to my dismay, turned out to be encryption. I was thinking of integrating an encryption counter-measure into freetrack but I don't know the language and some of the files are innaccessible so it will probably never happen, crappy hacks are currently the only solution, which has motivated my activism.

 

The very nature of non-profit open software encourages anyone to contribute to it, in doing so they are likely to defend it, the same cannot be said for commercial.

 

I don't see how people using ad-hoc head tracking with a webcam or wiimote is enough of a threat to justify NaturalPoint using encryption, which is extremely bad PR (also breaking TrackIR 1 and 2 compatibility in the process). FreeTrack is buggy, tricky to setup and has bad tech support also webcams and wiimotes are inferior to a TrackIR camera. I really hope the NaturalPoint business model is not so weak that it cannot rely on hardware sales alone and has to coercively manipulate the market to remain profitable. It would be a genuine setback for head tracking if NaturalPoint were to go out of business, absolutely nobody would want to see that. But they still have to compete fairly, like all businesses in a free market. I only hope that more people become aware of head tracking and buy TrackIR to ensure NaturalPoint remains in business. At the end of the day nobody gives a damn about factions, only that head tracking grows and prospers.

 

The early versions of FreeTrack worked as a 6DOF head tracker without any TrackIR interface, instead using lua, tcp and udp interface protocols which are still in the source. Definitely not "built on the TrackIR interface."

 

NaturalPoint had the opportunity to make a really secure interface from the beginning, they clearly didn't do this, and are paying the price. Once reverse engineered and established amongst competitors they can't legally encrypt it to prevent competition. They only have themselves to blame.

 

NaturalPoint may be a small company (?) but they still have a monopoly over head tracking in games (company size is irrelevant). USA vs Microsoft set a precedent that a monopoly encrypting an interface simply to block competition is illegal. EULA claims are irrelevant and so too is copyright when used for the same end. It's very disappointing to see that NaturalPoint have chosen to dig themselves into a hole on this matter.

[Sunjah]

Ok, just out of curioustity, how come NaturalPoint is selling TrackIR 4 for about $130,

 

NaturalPoint = $130?

 

 

and the same thing on Amazon is over $300

 

Amazon ^$300??

 

Are these different products? Am I seeing this wrong?

[Spartan1-1]

Ok, just out of curioustity, how come NaturalPoint is selling TrackIR 4 for about $130,

 

NaturalPoint = $130?

 

 

and the same thing on Amazon is over $300

 

Amazon ^$300??

 

Are these different products? Am I seeing this wrong?

 

Maybe NaturalPoint (a fine company IMO) has stolen their own program and now actually uses FreeTrack now which allows them to sell their products at a lower cost. :music_whistling::megalol:

[Tigrom]

Yea.

 

So anyway,

 

TrackIR is great.

 

Freetrack is great.

 

The OP has a great idea, its just a shame that it won't happen... For the exact same reason this thread has turned into a bitchfest.

[Groove]

You guys continue the NP/FT Topic like adults without namecalling etc.

 

Thanks for your cooperation.

[Axel40]

You know guys.

I just received my TrackIR 4 through the post this very morning. It's working all lovely and fluffy in BS right now and it's IMPRESSIVE!! Seriously so.

 

Thing that really bothers me is I was one of the very early adopters of Track IR 1.

They brought out TIR2 and I didn't need it as it wasn't a vast improvement over 1. Not in IL-2 and LOMAC and not at UK prices.

 

Then they brought out 3 with the vector but then certain games/sims would no longer support TIR1 and I was VERY pi$$ed.

So, I swore off Natural point for good and said I would NEVER buy another product as I hated the way they dropped support for the early versions.

 

Upshot is, I need TIR for BS so I had to go the route of Freetrak or TIR4.

 

I went with the best. It pains me to say it:megalol: but they are.

 

One thing, if they ever drop support for this version they will never get another penny from me....

 

...unless they bring out a high res, virtual helmet/tracker...:music_whistling:

[aledmb]

Just the same as I don't agree to pirating BS, even though it possible.

me too.

pirating anything you mean, right?

 

i'm done here.

good talking.

bye.

[Vault]

Gentlemen please listen to Acedy and Groove or this great thread will be closed.

 

I refuse to get into a political discussion on TIR v's FT but I would like to add my opinion because I've used both.

 

1. I owned TIR3 which was very good but unfortunatley it died on me just outside of warranty but TBH I did drop it once but TIR3 still worked for months after I dropped it.

 

2. FT with a VX100 and Logitech quickcam webcam are unacceptable for head tracking to me.

 

3. FT 2.2 with a Wiimote is just as good as my old TIR3 but FT2.2 and Wiimote has 6DOF. I get a rock solid 100 FPS and tracking is just as smooth and reliable as my old TIR3. I honestly cannot say a Wiimote is as good as TIR4 because I have not used TIR4.

 

Before you judge the Wiimote it's important to use 940 nm+ IR LED's with a Wiimote. It's also important to file the IR LED's domed head flat about 0.75-1.0mm from the element because LED's with a domed head have a 40 degree FOV.

[sobek]

2. FT with a VX100 and Logitech quickcam webcam are unacceptable for head tracking to me.

 

Would you care to elaborate? I use a vx1000 and find the tracking absolutely awesome. Did you, by chance, not ponder with the options too much? What version did you try the vx1000 with?

[sbern]

By the way,

 

I ordered a trackir4 and clip last weekend. Before FreeTrack, I thought head tracking was kinda dumb. I couldn't imagine it being worth $150 and figured it probably worked poorly at best. The chance to try it out so cheaply with FreeTrack and the fact that it worked so well is what sold me on the concept. From there, it was an easy decision to spend that much on a setup that (I hope) should work a little better. I would have spent the money even more happily if natural point hadn't closed their interface, but I spent it nonetheless.

 

The stuff should be arriving today so I get to crack it open when i get home from work. I also have some CH rudder pedals on order that are scheduled for delivery today, so it should be a good night for flying helicopters and a bad day for work tomorrow. Hopefully next week my MSSFFB2 stick from ebay arrives and I can manage to attach my X52 stick to it. I got motivated by the pics on Urze's web site! Has anyone else given this a try?

 

 

Chris.

[Vault]

Would you care to elaborate? I use a vx1000 and find the tracking absolutely awesome. Did you, by chance, not ponder with the options too much? What version did you try the vx1000 with?

 

I can't remeber the version of FT I used with the VX it was at least over a year ago I tested the VX. I played about with the FT settings for the VX for sometime but I couldn't get rid of or adapt to the latency. Maybe it was me, I'm far from the most patient of people.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Vault

[Guest Billiam]

I will take it

 

I will take the free track ir your offering..

[aledmb]

I will take the free track ir your offering..

 

nice word combo...