correct as is JDAM PP STEP

[MARLAN_]

When depressing STEP in the JDAM MSN sub-page when you have more than one Pre-Planned Mission with a coordinate (PP) it steps between the pre-planned missions.

This causes major issues when during release it will cause your bombs to hit the same target more than once.

For example:

PP1 STA 3 -> Target Coordinate A

PP1 STA 7 -> Target Coordinate B

PP2 STA 3 -> Target Coordinate C

PP2 STA 7 -> Target Coordinate D

Set QTY -> STA 3 & STA 7

Select PP1

When IN ZONE -> Press & Hold Pickle Switch

STA 3 released with PP1 (Target Coordinate A)

STA 7 released with PP1 (Target Coordinate B) <- THIS IS OKAY SO FAR

Select PP2

Press & Hold Pickle Switch

STA 3 released with PP2 (Target Coordinate C) <- STILL OK

STA 7 released with PP1 (Target Coordinate A) <- NOT OK

- This makes it very easy to double up bombs, in the above example, Target D was not employed on, and Target A was employed on twice. This can be avoided of course by manually verifying every single release, but that invalidates the usage of QTY.

In this particular bug report, I don't have evidence that I can share, but I think it's quite obvious that there is an issue when it mission computer is stepping between pre-planned missions, especially during release with QTY selected since the resulting effect is targets are missed/doubled up.

JDAM-PP-STEP.trk

[Digitalvole]

I’m not sure if I ran into this the other day or I just got my procedures wrong as I’m a bit rusty with PP.

8x JSOW C, PP mode. I put in 8 sets of coordinates, which I double checked were all correct. 4 on PP1 and 4 on PP2.

When in range I used the step function and pickled them individually as I’d forgotten I could select QTY. So 4x Pickle with PP2 then selected PP1 and repeat. 

Only 6 targets out of 8 were destroyed. 
 

 

[maxTRX]

4 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

I’m not sure if I ran into this the other day or I just got my procedures wrong as I’m a bit rusty with PP.

8x JSOW C, PP mode. I put in 8 sets of coordinates, which I double checked were all correct. 4 on PP1 and 4 on PP2.

When in range I used the step function and pickled them individually as I’d forgotten I could select QTY. So 4x Pickle with PP2 then selected PP1 and repeat. 

Only 6 targets out of 8 were destroyed. 
 

 

I haven't done this for a while and would have to check if anything changed.  From what I remember, even if I released 8xJDAMs manually, after releasing first 4 and switching PP then stepping to #6 JDAM would switch the PP again, to the previous one. So... when stepping through stations I also had to joggle through PP's.  There was also another issue with one bomb always going stupid, in spite of insuring the correct PP was loaded. I didn't have time to investigate, then... I just forgot about it.

[Foka]

8 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

STA 7 released with PP1 (Target Coordinate B) <- THIS IS OKAY SO FAR

Select PP2

Press & Hold Pickle Switch

STA 3 released with PP2 (Target Coordinate C) <- STILL OK

STA 7 released with PP1 (Target Coordinate A) <- NOT OK

What you shgould do after first drop:
Select PP2, change STA, select PP2, Pickle.

PP and TOO targets are assigned to each station, so you chave to change PP/TOO target for each station you want to drop.
I'm, not a real Hornet pilot, but I'd say it's correct as is.

[Solo_Turk]

you should change every station to PP2 individually

[MARLAN_]

1 hour ago, Foka said:

What you shgould do after first drop:
Select PP2, change STA, select PP2, Pickle.

PP and TOO targets are assigned to each station, so you chave to change PP/TOO target for each station you want to drop.
I'm, not a real Hornet pilot, but I'd say it's correct as is.

How do you use QTY when the MC is selecting the wrong bomb to drop then? Have you watched the track?

[Foka]

You select stations you want to drop, pickle, then change program on all stations, then pickle.

Remeber that droping so many bombs from plane like Hornet is gameism. No one does it IRL. PP programs should be loaded with data cartridge. and TOO targets, as name suggest, is not bombing multiple targets, but usually single target.

[BIGNEWY]

In our tests it is working as intended. 

thanks

[MARLAN_]

23 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

In our tests it is working as intended. 

thanks

Is it working differently internally than my provided track?

JDAM should not step to a entirely different mission during release.

Real World could have (potentially) all 6 PP missions filled out with targets for different target areas, mission factors, etc.

Is it intended in DCS that when pickling the MC will step to an entirely different mission? Particularly strange when QTY is selected, it will release your first bomb on to PP1 STA 3's target Coordinate and then the second bomb can release on PP2 STA 7's target coordinate. This makes selecting QTY unusable when more than one PP mission is filled out (and when we eventually get the data cartridge, you could easily have multiple missions filled, but only one being used based on planning factors) as bombs will step to the incorrect mission during a release when selecting multiple stations in QTY.

Hopefully the issue here is being described clearly.

Nothing in the sources I have reviewed indicate the MC should step to a different mission during release, only that it will step STA 8 -> STA 2 -> STA 7 -> STA 3.

I was wrong, current DCS implementation is correct.

Edited September 4, 2022 by MARLAN_

[Foka]

But you can not expect that every bomb will be drop on this same program (like STA2 on PP1, STA3 on PP1 and so on).
Usualy it will be STA2 on PP2, STA3 on PP6 and STA7 on PP4. So changing program on one station CAN NOT affect other stations.

[maxTRX]

4 hours ago, Foka said:

But you can not expect that every bomb will be drop on this same program (like STA2 on PP1, STA3 on PP1 and so on).
Usualy it will be STA2 on PP2, STA3 on PP6 and STA7 on PP4. So changing program on one station CAN NOT affect other stations.

8 JDAMs, TOO, QTY release:  Why does the first salvo of 4 bombs remain on selected TOO mission, then after switching to the other TOO mission and pressing the pickle switch, only the first bomb stays on this TOO, the remaining 3 bombs load the previous TOO mission. To me, it makes no sense.

If you do it, dropping a single bomb/pickle... it's the same pattern, except you can correct it by re-boxing the proper TOO before each pickle.

I showed these 2 situations in a brief vid:  https://youtu.be/4hSxtPth1DI

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by oldcrusty

[Foka]

50 minutes ago, oldcrusty said:

8 JDAMs, TOO, QTY release:  Why does the first salvo of 4 bombs remain on selected TOO mission, then after switching to the other TOO mission and pressing the pickle switch, only the first bomb stays on this TOO, the remaining 3 bombs load the previous TOO mission. To me, it makes no sense.

Because you changed TOO program for one station, not four.

There is no something liker "went back to TOO2", as you said in the video. Each station works independently. You changed TOO program for one station, not for four stations.
For single drops you changed TOO program for each station befor drop. For QTY drop you didn't. You changed TOO program for only one station.

You should drop first 4 bombs, then press TOO1 -> STEP -> TOO1 -> STEP -> TOO1 -> STEP -> TOO1 and ten pickle next 4 bombs with QTY selected.

 

[maxTRX]

12 hours ago, Foka said:

Because you changed TOO program for one station, not four.

There is no something liker "went back to TOO2", as you said in the video. Each station works independently. You changed TOO program for one station, not for four stations.
For single drops you changed TOO program for each station befor drop. For QTY drop you didn't. You changed TOO program for only one station.

You should drop first 4 bombs, then press TOO1 -> STEP -> TOO1 -> STEP -> TOO1 -> STEP -> TOO1 and ten pickle next 4 bombs with QTY selected.

 

Cool, I can live with this... As a matter of fact I tried this a while back and ran into issues and for some reason I didn't do enough 'trial and error' tests this time. 

Might not be the most simple logic for my cranium but it works.

[MARLAN_]

21 hours ago, Foka said:

But you can not expect that every bomb will be drop on this same program (like STA2 on PP1, STA3 on PP1 and so on).
Usualy it will be STA2 on PP2, STA3 on PP6 and STA7 on PP4. So changing program on one station CAN NOT affect other stations.

It's hard to read what you write in your replies, but to be clear, it should step to an entirely different mission during that release?

What evidence do you have that entirely different missions should be automatically stepped into during a release?

I understand it now, I was wrong, DCS is correct here.

Edited September 4, 2022 by MARLAN_

[MARLAN_]

@BIGNEWYI checked schematics & other sources for all applicable systems and in no case does is it ever indicate that the STEP button, nor release should the MC switch PP missions on its own, it indicates many many times however, that STEP and RELEASE should only switch between stations. You can have multiple different missions with vastly different target areas, the DCS F18 is currently automatically switching between missions when using STEP, but even more critically, during release, especially when QTY is used, which will result in unintended side-effects.

You're right, current DCS implementation is correct.

Edited September 4, 2022 by MARLAN_

[maxTRX]

47 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

It's hard to read what you write in your replies, but to be clear, you believe that when holding down pickle for a release using QTY, it should step to an entirely different mission during that release?

What evidence do you have that entirely different missions should be automatically stepped into during a release?

Before Foka answers...   Before every QTY release, you have to match each station with whatever PP/TOO prog. you wish, then pickle. I the vid I presented, all 4 stations were already on TOO2 before the first release, due to the way the targets were assigned (TOO2 was the last prog. assigned for each STA) so, when I pickled all 4 bombs headed for TOO2 targets.

Now, before the next QTY pickle, we have to 'match' each STA with the other TOO by stepping through stations and boxing desired TOO. In this case TOO1.

[MARLAN_]

1 hour ago, oldcrusty said:

Before Foka answers...   Before every QTY release, you have to match each station with whatever PP/TOO prog. you wish, then pickle. I the vid I presented, all 4 stations were already on TOO2 before the first release, due to the way the targets were assigned (TOO2 was the last prog. assigned for each STA) so, when I pickled all 4 bombs headed for TOO2 targets.

Now, before the next QTY pickle, we have to 'match' each STA with the other TOO by stepping through stations and boxing desired TOO. In this case TOO1.

I appreciate that! As far as I understand/have read, missions shouldn't be automatically changed during release requiring the user to correct it after every release (or setting it before). I'm particularly referencing PP Missions here, although TOO missions should work the same way and shouldn't be automatically changed without user consent... if you select TOO1 it should remain in TOO1 and only step between priority stations (8->2->7->3 as available/ready), not automatically change to a totally different mission, even more of an issue when using pre-planned missions.

Edit: Looking into the workaround more, the current implementation seems very strange. It is essentially setting stations as the root, and not missions.

Edited September 4, 2022 by MARLAN_

[rob10]

You might want to dig back in the forums.  JDAM release has been argued/debated extensively and while it may not seem intuitive to you, a lot of it is the way it is.  I can't say if it is currently right or wrong, just pointing out there is a lot of previous discussion that may help clarify it.

[MARLAN_]

Looking through many schematics and other JDAM sources, nothing indicates anywhere that STEP/RELEASE should do anything other than change between priority stations and not missions, which requires the user to select.

I'll double check with my F18 friend when I can, but he's been busy so it might be a bit.

[MARLAN_]

Nevermind, I am wrong, I found an answer in one of the documents, the current DCS implementation is correct. Sorry! I feel dumb now

[Foka]

2 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

It's hard to read what you write in your replies, but to be clear, you believe that when holding down pickle for a release using QTY, it should step to an entirely different mission during that release?

What evidence do you have that entirely different missions should be automatically stepped into during a release?

Sorry, I don't understand the question, but @oldcrustyexplainedt that well.

[maxTRX]

30 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

Nevermind, I am wrong, I found an answer in one of the documents, the current DCS implementation is correct. Sorry! I feel dumb now

Hey, no need to...  Bringing up possible issues wakes people up once in a while and makes them go through procedures, refresh memory, etc. That's all good.  Most of us don't have TAC manuals and rely on how DCS implements 'stuff' from SME's or whatever...  I always catch myself applying 'word of mouth' material, lots of it from other (then legacy Hornet) platforms.