FM/SCAS much improved

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Just tried the Apache again after several weeks (latest OB, 3 Sep). Did some abrupt transitions to OGE/IGE hover with ATT and ALT hold modes, and no more wild 'rodeo' rides. Pretty stable actually. Was the FM/SCAS fixed? Definitely feels different and better.

Edited September 3, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[inexus]

I suggest to follow this thread here...

 

 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

8 hours ago, inexus said:

I suggest to follow this thread here...

 

I did not notice the SCAS sounds to be worse than before. My point is I am now able to transition to hover in OGE/IGE with ATT/ALT hold without rolling and rocking back and forth like before which had been one of my complaints. I find it surprisingly 'stable' now in that regard. Definitely an improvement IMO. Hence, maybe the SCAS sounds didn't persist and bother me that much because I got the helo to behave in a hover. Before, the helo would be all over the place and consequently the SCAS beeping would be more, which added to the frustration.  

[pii]

58 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

I did not notice the SCAS sounds to be worse than before. My point is I am now able to transition to hover in OGE/IGE with ATT/ALT hold without rolling and rocking back and forth like before which had been one of my complaints. I find it surprisingly 'stable' now in that regard. Definitely an improvement IMO. Hence, maybe the SCAS sounds didn't persist and bother me that much because I got the helo to behave in a hover. Before, the helo would be all over the place and consequently the SCAS beeping would be more, which added to the frustration.  

hmmmm perhapes you were not going fast enough because those bugs are still in the Sim. Matter fact the ATT hold dosen't hold you steady any longer (it will drift all over) and hold is aways going off and on and will drive you crazy with the long beeps. I don't even use them any longer to maintain my sanity. I used to be able to turn it on at <6 km and it would pull me into a hover but not anylonger  it'll be back sooner or later.

so in conclusion IMO they got worse after the last patch.

[nawarren]

Wow, really surprised you find it flies better. I have the exact opposite. Whereas before I could fly it fairly smoothly, now it's all over the place, abrupt changes in pitch make it almost uncontrollable. To the point where I have decided to not fly it until it's fixed. I went back to the MI8 which I hadn't flown in a while and it was amazing, predictable control at all phases of flight, ok VRS is still a bit over modelled I think! But such a joy to fly, whereas I find the Apache in it's latest rendition to be a wild beast that I can't tame, I'm fighting it the whole time and it's not much fun. Hopefully it will be worked on and be at least predictable. I'm afraid I've given up for now as it's exhausting trying to fly it smoothly.

[Floyd1212]

It's kind of funny to see different people's reactions after each patch, when we really have no idea if ED made any changes whatsoever to the FM in any given patch.

I think the key is that if you fly it exclusively, and frequently, you will adapt and get used to it.  If you go off and fly something else, then come back to it after being away for a couple weeks, I would think it would take some time to get back in the groove.

[Moxica]

I find that the SCAS is cancelling my anti-torque input and trim. It is simply countering every anti-torque input.
Effectively removing my chances of doing anything with precision.
And I can never get enough reliable experience to be able to predict the result of its behaviour.

[admiki]

1 hour ago, Moxica said:

I find that the SCAS is cancelling my anti-torque input and trim. It is simply countering every anti-torque input.
Effectively removing my chances of doing anything with precision.
And I can never get enough reliable experience to be able to predict the result of its behaviour.

That's why you have to hold trim release while changing heading. There is break-out limit, but as you found out, makes precise control hard.

[Moxica]

22 hours ago, admiki said:

That's why you have to hold trim release while changing heading. There is break-out limit, but as you found out, makes precise control hard.

Thank you.
It is no su much a problem when changing heading. More when trying to make small adjustments during landing. Esp. in tight/crowded spots. And in those situations; pedal inputs only. Small inputs simply does not apply anything due to the counter effect of the SCAS.

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Moxica

[admiki]

23 minutes ago, Moxica said:

Thank you.
It is no su much a problem when changing heading. More when trying to make small adjustments during landing. Esp. in tight/crowded spots. And in those situations; pedal inputs only. Small inputs simply does not apply anything due to the counter effect of the SCAS.

 

 

Again, break-out limit. If you are under it, system thinks it's an inadvertent input and will fight it. Hold trim release and system will work with you.

[Moxica]

Are there any calculations going on? Or does it just assume that pedal inputs are inadvertent, and therefore cancelling?
I havent understood how this is helpful yet.

[admiki]

9 hours ago, Moxica said:

I havent understood how this is helpful yet.

Hold trim release. Hold, not press.

[Floyd1212]

Do you have springs on your pedals, or spring-less?

[Moxica]

Thank you for your patience, Admiki. I do get the "hold trim release" a nice piece of info for me at this time. Been practicing a bit tonight.
I'll try to make it clearer: I do not understand how the SCAS canceling my pedal inputs is helping. Why is it there in the first place?

Just now, Floyd1212 said:

Do you have springs on your pedals, or spring-less?

I have springed pedals (CH Products Pro pedals)

[Floyd1212]

When the FTR is not being held, the SCAS is always trying to "help you" keep a stable heading.  It will counter your slight pedal inputs with opposite controls to maintain your heading, up to a point where you are providing more input on the pedals than it is programmed to try and counter.  This is the "break-out" force that was mentioned above, and is something that has been adjusted over time with tweaks to the FM.

If you gently give it more and more pedal, you will find the point where the SCAS stops trying to correct your heading and lets you override it and change the orientation of the aircraft.  It just takes practice to know how much pedal it takes.

Alternatively, as long as you are holding the FTR button down, it stops trying to make those counter corrections for you in all channels: pitch, roll, yaw, collective, etc.  I personally find that holding the FTR creates more problems for me than it helps, since I am not used to handling the aircraft without the SCAS assistance engaged.  It is a very different animal when unassisted. 

So I just know that to get the aircraft to actually change heading to the left, I need to give it 1 inch of left pedal, because if I only give it .5 inch, it will counter it.

[Moxica]

I am able to repeatedly land on shipdecks and small (stampsized) spaces after a lot of practice. But they are not allways graceful. 
This is mostly due to the unpredictable effect of pedal corrections (Which I need a lot of, every timeI adjust collective)
If I were on the development team on Boeing at that time, I probably would suggest to disable SCAS on pedals under a certain speed.
Or at least try to make it predictably linear.
Just to test if it could actually be of some assist to the pilot.
As this works now, I perceive it more as "Hey! Lets just make this more challenging, because, why not?"
(Or I just need even more practice)
(Or I need new pedals)

Edited February 9, 2023 by Moxica

[Floyd1212]

You can go to the M > UTIL page and disable the SCAS for the yaw channel (or any of them), and try it yourself.  I think you will find it even more of a struggle to keep the aircraft aligned how you want with it totally disabled.

In the real aircraft, the pilot would use the FTR button while doing this maneuvering, which changes the behavior of the SCAS to stop fighting you, or at least fight you less.  But how it is currently modeled in DCS, pressing FTR disables the channels completely, which drastically changes how the aircraft handles.

I think having pedals without springs could make a big difference.  It is ingrained in my muscle memory at this point that every little adjustment to the collective is accompanied by matching adjustments to the pedals, but like my collective, they will stay put when I relax my feet again.  This means I don't have to trim nearly as often as I imagine someone with springy pedals does.

When I am coming in for a landing, or coming to a stop to a hover, I reset my trim and fly it "direct" all the way to the ground, or until I am in a stable hover (at which point I trim and enable ATT Hold).

[lefuneste01]

It's too bad they did not do the same things than for the Hind. There is more or less the same problem, instead you press "microswitch" on pedal instead of FTR. But you have an option to "auto press" microswitch as soon as you go further than a deadzone you can setup. So if you use this option plus "the center trim", things are far easier to handle.

[admiki]

1 hour ago, lefuneste01 said:

It's too bad they did not do the same things than for the Hind. There is more or less the same problem, instead you press "microswitch" on pedal instead of FTR. But you have an option to "auto press" microswitch as soon as you go further than a deadzone you can setup. So if you use this option plus "the center trim", things are far easier to handle.

You can have the same thing. Just select that your FTR trim pedals too

[lefuneste01]

5 hours ago, admiki said:

You can have the same thing. Just select that your FTR trim pedals too

How can you configure it ? I did not find any other option than kind of trim...

It seems to me FTR is acting on all axis, at the opposite of "micro switches" of Hind which are only for yaw axis.

[admiki]

Sorry, I misunderstood what are you asking for.

But Apache pedals do work the same as your "further than a deadzone" in Hind. FMC will try to hold your heading and after you cross the threshhold it will revert to dampening only.

For the record, I always disable heading hold in Hind, and I always hold FTR in Apache when moving around

Edited February 10, 2023 by admiki

[Moxica]

34 minutes ago, admiki said:

and I always hold FTR in Apache when moving around

 

I think this will be my new strategy (on landings) from now on. Even if  I'll have to start a new learning curve, allmost from scratch.
Since I recently switched from Quest2 to Reverb G2, I have a totally new experience with DCS  anyway. And with that; much more motivation.

Thanx, guys.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Moxica

[cow_art]

To be fair, ED have stated on multiple occasions that they are not done with the SCAS of the Apache. And I wouldn't be surprised if the yaw breakout values will get tuned. It currently is pretty tricky to make minor heading corrections, especially when moving slowly or in a hover. Holding the FTR works very well in these situations though, it just needs finesse and practice. I think for the current state of the Apache that is the correct answer.

Edited February 10, 2023 by cow_art

[deloy]

FTR is still not simulated properly, it still completely disconnects SAS function when held which is not as per the real thing. Although we feel it is stable, but still not working as it should.  Hope they implement this and correct breakout values soon (no complains, as it is still EA! :)). 

[bradmick]

That’s because it does turn off the SAS in the real thing when the FTR switch is pressed. This is accurate behavior. The only thing you have available when you push the button is CAS. You, the pilot, are the SAS when the FTR is pressed and held.