First PC building suggestions :)

[Rich97]

Good morning aviators! Nice to meet you, I'm a console newbie who recently fell in love with DCS (especially watching at Growling Sidewinter vids), currently looking for my first PC building capable of running this sim properly at high resolutions (1440p at least) and FPS (60+) with track IR (and eventually VR in the future). During these days I spent hours of my life checking threads and discussions on this forum and YouTube, trying to learn something about proper pc components. I have to admit that starting from zero has been a bit frustrating, so I initially checked for pre-build pcs on Amazon and e-stores, like this one:

https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B0B8P4VW2L/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A33HPOSNUQ2NKR&th=1 

 

It looked quite good: 32gb RAM DDR4 3200MHZ, intel core i7-12700KF (4,90GHZ), Nvidia GeForce 3070 8GB, 2tb M.2 SSD, 2.299euros. But then I kept reading everywhere not to trust pre-build configurations because of their over-pricing, and most of all that 32GB RAM is starting to be not enough on DCS, especially for MP heavy missions. So I tried to build my own configuration piece after piece at a similar budget including 64GB RAM DDR5. Here it is: 

Processor: Intel Core i7-12700K (3,6-5,0 GHZ) - 472 euros

Motherboard: ASUS PRIME Z690-P WIFI ATX, Intel Z690, LGA1700, DDR5, PCI 5.0, Realtek 2.5Gb Ethernet, WiFi 6 (802.11ax), Realtek 7.1 Sorround, 3xM.2, 4xSATA 6GB/s, Aura Sync RGB - 256,47 euro

Memory: Crucial RAM CT2K32G48C40U5 64GB Kit (2x32GB) DDR5 4800MHz - 305,99 euros

System Cooling: MSI MAG CORELIQUID 360R V2 Liquid CPU Cooler 360mm Radiator, 3x 120mm ARGB PWM Fan, ARGB illumination, MSI Center, compatible with Intel and AMD, LGA 1700 ready - 125 euros

Graphic Card: MSI GeForce RTX 3080 VENTUS 3X PLUS 10G OC LHR Gaming - NVIDIA RTX 3080 LHR, GPU 1740 MHz, GDDR6X 10 GB - 927,34 euros

SSD: MSI SPATIUM M480 SSD 1TB - PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 Internal Solid State Drive, 7000MB/s Read & 5500MB/s Write, 3D NAND, Built-In Data Security, MSI Center - 160,99 euros

Power Supply: Corsair RM850 ATX, Modular, 80 Plus Gold, 850 Watt, RM Series - 124,90 euros

Case: EMPIRE GAMING – Case PC Gamer Diamond ARGB mid-tower ATX - 75,99 euros

TOTAL: 2448,68 EUROS

What do you think about this build? Do I forget something? Is everything compatible? What performance would I get? I'd like to stay lower on budget (2000 euros), maybe going on a 3060 or an Intel Core i5, but I fear of not getting an enjoyable experience with as high performance as on more recent components. 

Sorry for all these questions, but this is my very first time in PC gaming, and I really want to make the right choice, enjoyable and durable for at least 4-5 years. I would really appreciate your help  

 

 

 

 

 

[LucShep]

There are some things that I'd avoid, but that'd be in a scenario where one builds everything from the ground up (as I prefer to).
But that's me, and some don't have the capabilities, or time, or patience.

Intel Core i5 12600K would be equally good for DCS, though for sure the i7 12700K is the better processor and will be better in the long run - stick with that.
Asus Prime Z690-P is a good mobo, so is the Corsair RM850 PSU.  Also the 1TB PCIe4 NVMe SSD. And the AIO (360 rad) for CPU cooling. You'll be good to go.
64GB of RAM is definitely a good move, and DDR5 4800 for that price, while far from the best, it's quite okay (I'd go 64GB DDR4 3600 CL16/18 and Z690 DDR4 motherboard, but not sure pre-builds can be found with those now).
Do not skimp on the graphics card - at this point, go for no less than an RTX3080 - stick with that.  Take note though, the one listed there is a MSI Ventus model, and that one runs quite hot when pushed.
The PC case is the worst offender from what I see - seems budget and quite restrictive in air-flow, from what I can notice.

It's a pre-build system and, as usual with those, certain things "come with the territory". 
But considering that it is a pre-build system and also its total price, for DCS @ 1440p and 60 FPS+, I think that's quite good. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by LucShep

[unlikely_spider]

I'm not an Intel guy - does that processor need (or benefit from) DDR5? I think the price premium on those may not be worth it yet.

For the pre-built, a 3070 may be good enough for monitor use but once you go VR that would be one of the first candidates for upgrading. But then again if you don't expect to be doing that for 6 months then the 4000 series may be out by then anyway.

[Rich97]

39 minuti fa, LucShep ha scritto:

There are some things that I'd avoid, but that'd be in a scenario where one builds everything from the ground up (as I prefer to).

Considering that's a pre-built, and also the total price, for DCS @ 1440p and 60 FPS+, I think that's quite good. 

Thank you Luc! Going for a pre-built would be much easier for me indeed  but I'd accept the challenge if the final result will worth the "trouble". I also have a friend of mine who could help me. 

 

33 minuti fa, unlikely_spider ha scritto:

I'm not an Intel guy - does that processor need (or benefit from) DDR5? I think the price premium on those may not be worth it yet.

For the pre-built, a 3070 may be good enough for monitor use but once you go VR that would be one of the first candidates for upgrading. But then again if you don't expect to be doing that for 6 months then the 4000 series may be out by then anyway.

I don't have enough computer expertise to answer your question  If you say it's not optimized I'd stay on a DDR4 64GB then. 

About the pre-built, the only thing that concerns me is the 32GB RAM's behaviour on heavy maps. 

And yes, VR will come later: I have the feeling that the 4000 will be out of budget... 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Rich97

[BitMaster]

 

+1 to what LucShep said.  Take DDR4 3200-3600 64GB with a matching board and grab as high as you can with the GPU. I don't know that tower but make sure it's got PLENTY airflow for the GPU.

[Lange_666]

33 minutes ago, Rich97 said:

About the pre-built, the only thing that concerns me is the 32GB RAM's behaviour on heavy maps. 

I just had a go on the BuddySpike MP server, Syria map with only 4 players, medium to low settings on my end (in single play i have a high setup (not ultra or extreme) and my 32GB got completely filled up although later in the mission it went down to around 29GB. Single player gets to around 17-18 GB RAM, depending on the map.
Same for the 12GB VRAM on my 3080Ti, in MP it fills up entirely (on those medium to low settings), in SP (high settings) it gets by with around 8GB. Older maps like Caucasus or NTTR get by with 7-8 GB of VRAM.
DCS for that matter is really RAM hungry, if i take MSFS as comparison, i barely get over 5-6 GB of VRAM and around 8-9GB RAM on standard settings.
It all depends a bit on what happens when the RAM (and VRAM) for that matter get filled up (on 2560x1440, 60FPS locked). When everything fills up, i'll get stutter.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Lange_666

[AngleOff66]

never mind. I did mis read.  Need moar coffee.

Edited September 7, 2022 by NoCoolName66

[Worrazen]

14 hours ago, Rich97 said:

Good morning aviators! Nice to meet you, I'm a console newbie who recently fell in love with DCS (especially watching at Growling Sidewinter vids), currently looking for my first PC building capable of running this sim properly at high resolutions (1440p at least) and FPS (60+) with track IR (and eventually VR in the future). During these days I spent hours of my life checking threads and discussions on this forum and YouTube, trying to learn something about proper pc components. I have to admit that starting from zero has been a bit frustrating, so I initially checked for pre-build pcs on Amazon and e-stores, like this one:

https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B0B8P4VW2L/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A33HPOSNUQ2NKR&th=1 

 

It looked quite good: 32gb RAM DDR4 3200MHZ, intel core i7-12700KF (4,90GHZ), Nvidia GeForce 3070 8GB, 2tb M.2 SSD, 2.299euros. But then I kept reading everywhere not to trust pre-build configurations because of their over-pricing, and most of all that 32GB RAM is starting to be not enough on DCS, especially for MP heavy missions. So I tried to build my own configuration piece after piece at a similar budget including 64GB RAM DDR5. Here it is: 

Processor: Intel Core i7-12700K (3,6-5,0 GHZ) - 472 euros

Motherboard: ASUS PRIME Z690-P WIFI ATX, Intel Z690, LGA1700, DDR5, PCI 5.0, Realtek 2.5Gb Ethernet, WiFi 6 (802.11ax), Realtek 7.1 Sorround, 3xM.2, 4xSATA 6GB/s, Aura Sync RGB - 256,47 euro

Memory: Crucial RAM CT2K32G48C40U5 64GB Kit (2x32GB) DDR5 4800MHz - 305,99 euros

System Cooling: MSI MAG CORELIQUID 360R V2 Liquid CPU Cooler 360mm Radiator, 3x 120mm ARGB PWM Fan, ARGB illumination, MSI Center, compatible with Intel and AMD, LGA 1700 ready - 125 euros

Graphic Card: MSI GeForce RTX 3080 VENTUS 3X PLUS 10G OC LHR Gaming - NVIDIA RTX 3080 LHR, GPU 1740 MHz, GDDR6X 10 GB - 927,34 euros

SSD: MSI SPATIUM M480 SSD 1TB - PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 Internal Solid State Drive, 7000MB/s Read & 5500MB/s Write, 3D NAND, Built-In Data Security, MSI Center - 160,99 euros

Power Supply: Corsair RM850 ATX, Modular, 80 Plus Gold, 850 Watt, RM Series - 124,90 euros

Case: EMPIRE GAMING – Case PC Gamer Diamond ARGB mid-tower ATX - 75,99 euros

TOTAL: 2448,68 EUROS

What do you think about this build? Do I forget something? Is everything compatible? What performance would I get? I'd like to stay lower on budget (2000 euros), maybe going on a 3060 or an Intel Core i5, but I fear of not getting an enjoyable experience with as high performance as on more recent components. 

Sorry for all these questions, but this is my very first time in PC gaming, and I really want to make the right choice, enjoyable and durable for at least 4-5 years. I would really appreciate your help  

 

 

 

 

 

Good attempt, you shouldn't skimp on your first PC otherwise you'll start out with a wimper and you don't want that when trying out a new platform, and because you have little PC maintenance experience it's better to be safe than sorry, any issues with good but not good enough parts can get you expensive repairs or a headache if you try to fix thing yourself.

But when buying any kind of PC hardware, in general, it's also the time context that's important, you have the wrong platform for this time, going Intel 12th gen now would probably be unwise, AMD's Zen4 Ryzen 7000 series are just around the corner, basically counting weeks.

The AMD 7000 series CPU's are set to go well over Intel's 12th gen, don't hold my word, but this is what is being said, so any better single-core performance is good for DCS.

I'm not sure about intel for what they plan with the chipsets and new CPUs, but with AMD it's already been announced you have the option to upgrade to a 3DVcache later that should again boost gaming performance (single-core)

CPU: Wait for AMD 7700X or better

Motherboard: AM5 platform boards are just starting to be announced, no need to go with the E(Extreme) versions chipsets.

RAM: DO NOT GO BELOW 64GB!!!

SSD: Those write/read speeds are "sequential transfer", the random and 4K are more important for general and OS main drive and usually significantly lower than what it says on the label. Sequential means if you copy and paste one big 1-10+ GB file ... but most of the time that's not how programs/games read/write. Pay attention to the controller a SSD has, some are just better than others, this requires reading in depth reviews, I'm out of the loop on these things these days.

PSU: I have personal experience of many years and PSU is not something to skimp and I always go overboard with it, for a big build like yours. Do not be fooled by Wattage thinking it's enough, you never want a PSU to work at 100% of the rated load, 90% max, that ensures longevity and stable supply. Costlier PSUs also have better filtering and cleaning of electrical noises/harmonics and other bad things that will hurt longevity of your motherboard/ram/cpu and all of the other components. This one's probably good enough, but I personally have the platinum HX series myself.

EDIT: Fixed PSU opinion confusion (old obsolete text removed)

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Worrazen

[Burt]

Great advice in here ! Gpu’s are easier to get now days not sure how long that’s gonna last but I was super lucky about 2years ago getting a 3090 as I wanted a machine based around my G2/ VR. If all possible go for 64gb of ram and the most gpu vram possible as you mentioned vr is in the future. DCS is getting more amazing updates and add ons and it’s worth to say

Just Go for it !

Edited September 7, 2022 by Burt

[Rich97]

Thank you guys for all your suggestions and explanations!
I see that nex generations are around the corner, and I’d really love to have as first PC a “next level beast” with latest specs. But would it be doable with a 2000-2400 budget? I think this is the only issue  

 

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Rich97 said:

Thank you guys for all your suggestions and explanations!
I see that nex generations are around the corner, and I’d really love to have as first PC a “next level beast” with latest specs. But would it be doable with a 2000-2400 budget? I think this is the only issue  

 

You have to balance the positives/negatives, that goes for the hardware and the expectations....

It's true, the next gen of graphics-cards and processors are around the corner. This is a bad time to buy a full system, as it could be one to six months where you should see better performance for the same money. Buying now on impulse could turn out as a bit of a hard pill to swallow later.

But then you have to ask yourself how long are you willing to wait.
Get the stuff now and enjoy DCS right away?   ...or wait to get better performance but be kept away from the fun untill then?
Only you can decide.  

One thing you should be aware of is the widely commented DCS performance quirks, and it's been like this for many years. Hence the ubber requirements.
What I mean with this is, better manage your expectations, as even the very top dollar hardware struggles with DCS at highest settings, more or less notorious with certain combinations of modules + maps. 

That said, you also don't need to spend insane ammounts on the very top hardware to enjoy DCS at 1440P @ ~60FPS ( as always, remember the "law of diminishing returns"). 
For example, the list of hardware parts you've placed on your opening topic is a nice ticket for a great experience with DCS, as well as with every other sim/game.

I know, I'm not helping...    

[Worrazen]

7 hours ago, Rich97 said:

Thank you guys for all your suggestions and explanations!
I see that nex generations are around the corner, and I’d really love to have as first PC a “next level beast” with latest specs. But would it be doable with a 2000-2400 budget? I think this is the only issue  

 

You won't make a mistake going AM5 with Ryzen 7000 as that is the next gen that's being introduced this year, and it truly is next gen, it's the introduction of the new AM5 socket for AMD, and AM5 will be there for at least 3-4 years (even tho they say 2024+) software can be optimized as time goes on and as DCS will get big optimizations in the future, your PC can suddenly become good enough if you think it won't ... yes, even your next gen beefy PC is not going to see some earthshattering DCS performance because simply DCS is a simulator and is inherently hungry, consumer hardware in terms of single-core performance is a total joke and that moore's law was broken ages ago, they're basically cheating with multi-core in a way to keep those graphs looking good, but your multiple cores can never work as if it was a gigantic single core.

You could even wait for Intel's 13th gen but that's a wait until at least october if rumors are to be considered.

The dillema is if you want to wait until october-november to see how Ryzen 7000 and Intel's 13th gen compare, but being on the latest and early adopter you have timing that's working against you. This is the first cycle of DDR5 RAM, prices of DDR5 are at their highest now that they'll probably be for most of the next cycles, RAM tends to see an increase at the end of the cycle too, so I can't say DDR5's price is the highest now, it could get higher 5 years from now but that's just scarcity that does it.

Intel 13th Gen is going to add more E-Cores, so perhaps you might have more cores in total with Intel there, but that still remains to be seen if that'll be enough to go over AMD.

With AMD's Ryzen 7000 series, all CPUs will get an integrated low-power GPU as part of the I/O core by default for maintenance, this means you can power up the PC without a dedicated GPU and do troubleshooting and maintenance, enough to use the web in a basic way. Since it's a GPU inside I/O core, it doesn't take away any beef from any CPU cores and is by amd NOT considered an APU and yes that makes sense. The earlier APU's from previous gens had to take a cut out of the CPU stuff for their GPU components, because they don't increase total space for extra GPU components, so an APU for the same level model would have lower CPU performance compared to their CPU-only brother. AMD Didn't announce yet what they want to do with desktop APUs for 7000 series, and rumors are AMD is trying to move away from the "APU" moniker, perhaps signaling APUs might become different ... maybe they'll actually start adding an extra dedicated GPU chiplet on without sacrificing any CPU performance versus existing CPU only models.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Worrazen

[LucShep]

10 hours ago, Worrazen said:

You won't make a mistake going AM5 with Ryzen 7000 as that is the next gen that's being introduced this year, and it truly is next gen, it's the introduction of the new AM5 socket for AMD, and AM5 will be there for at least 3-4 years (even tho they say 2024+) software can be optimized as time goes on and as DCS will get big optimizations in the future, your PC can suddenly become good enough if you think it won't ... yes, even your next gen beefy PC is not going to see some earthshattering DCS performance because simply DCS is a simulator and is inherently hungry, consumer hardware in terms of single-core performance is a total joke and that moore's law was broken ages ago, they're basically cheating with multi-core in a way to keep those graphs looking good, but your multiple cores can never work as if it was a gigantic single core.

You could even wait for Intel's 13th gen but that's a wait until at least october if rumors are to be considered.

The dillema is if you want to wait until october-november to see how Ryzen 7000 and Intel's 13th gen compare, but being on the latest and early adopter you have timing that's working against you. This is the first cycle of DDR5 RAM, prices of DDR5 are at their highest now that they'll probably be for most of the next cycles, RAM tends to see an increase at the end of the cycle too, so I can't say DDR5's price is the highest now, it could get higher 5 years from now but that's just scarcity that does it.

Intel 13th Gen is going to add more E-Cores, so perhaps you might have more cores in total with Intel there, but that still remains to be seen if that'll be enough to go over AMD.

With AMD's Ryzen 7000 series, all CPUs will get an integrated low-power GPU as part of the I/O core by default for maintenance, this means you can power up the PC without a dedicated GPU and do troubleshooting and maintenance, enough to use the web in a basic way. Since it's a GPU inside I/O core, it doesn't take away any beef from any CPU cores and is by amd NOT considered an APU and yes that makes sense. The earlier APU's from previous gens had to take a cut out of the CPU stuff for their GPU components, because they don't increase total space for extra GPU components, so an APU for the same level model would have lower CPU performance compared to their CPU-only brother. AMD Didn't announce yet what they want to do with desktop APUs for 7000 series, and rumors are AMD is trying to move away from the "APU" moniker, perhaps signaling APUs might become different ... maybe they'll actually start adding an extra dedicated GPU chiplet on without sacrificing any CPU performance versus existing CPU only models.

 

Quite frankly, I'm not convinced by Ryzen 7000 series, at least not with this initial batch of processors.
If buying into AMD Ryzen 7000 series processors, and looking at how DCS seems to like the 5800X3D and 3D-stacked L3 cache, I'd definitely wait for the new X3D versions (expected later on), and skip the initial release models. 
Moreover, any of these now also have higher TDP and will require better cooling (i.e, AMD became Intel), and there won't be any with DDR4 RAM, when we're still at a point where DDR5 RAM is not as affordable (for quality 64GB kits) or any faster for gaming, or the trade off with higher latency penalty.
Not to mention that there may likely be (again) a few annoyances for early adopters of a brand new AMD platform (in the past, USB issues and constant necessary BIOS updates, for instances).

Where things will definitely make a difference for DCS is with the upcoming new gen of GPUs (Nvidia RTX4000 and AMD RX7000 series), it's worth waiting for those. 
The processors not so much, not for DCS. At least until Intel 13th gen and the X3D versions of AMD Ryzen 7000 are out, I don't think we'll see worthy improvements for the cost.

Edited September 8, 2022 by LucShep

[BitMaster]

ehhh, ok, the new 7000 AMD show higher temps..BUT..this has a reason, it's t.i.n.y. 5nm lithoghraphy and things get very very small and thus the watts get burned in a smaller oven that then glows hotter. AMD still needs a lot LESS watts than Intel does and probably will keep that advantage for this coming round. It's just that AMD is a few nm smaller than Intel and that's why hotspots are more pronounced. I wouldn't say you should measure the Cooler at the CPU temp alone,  the actual wattage it burns is the real deal. As long as AMD says those temps are fine I wouldn't care too much.  

But what Luc says about the 3D-Cache makes sense.. tho, it is always the "wrong" time to buy parts, it really never fits and one must decide or wait forever for the perfect day to come.

If I had to buy today and couldn't wait, I'd go 5800X-3D, 64GB ( maybe even 128 ), and a nice board that fits the needs. The rest is the same, regardless of what you buy.

 

Maybe the PSU is a big "?". 

If you buy new, get one that has the new ATX connectors for GPU's. That is WAY safer than any adapter if there ever will be one. That new connector talks to the GPU and negotiates wattage draw according to PSU specs. So a 600w GPU won't pull 12v-600w from a 12v-400w capable PSU. Those new toys talk to each other, clever. I doubt an adapter can mimick the PSU's sensor lines or give it the function to talk bidirectional over wires it doesn't have :(. So if you plan for a new rig, consider a modern PSU.

Edited September 8, 2022 by BitMaster