Optional Refueling Assist

[Tank50us]

OK, before anyone starts grabbing their pitchforks and torches, just... hear me out.

Unlike other things that I, and others have suggested, the idea is to have a keybind that 'locks' us into the refueling area once we've hooked up. Not something that guides us in, not something that automatically gets us hooked up, just something to keep us in place until we've either maxed out out tanks, or, move the stick/throttle to disconnect (Similar to disengaging alt hold or ATC).

Now, I know many people may not like the idea, and that's fine. This would be an option that's 'off' by default, and can be turned on by those needing just a little bit of help staying hooked up to the tanker... provided we're within the parameters first (hooked up, throttle/stick in the correct position).

Now, would it engage automatically once we hook up? No. It would have to be activated once the plane connects to the tanker.

Who would it help most? Well, obviously new players. But it would also help those who are using the 'simpler' control setups (IE, the cheap sticks and throttles). Not saying that people with those sticks are unable to do it (I know a guy that does it with a PS4 controller), but it would still be a helpful tool for those struggling with those tasks.

What do you guys think? Think it would help? Or do you think I'm nuts?

[Dangerzone]

2 hours ago, Tank50us said:

OK, before anyone starts grabbing their pitchforks and torches, just... hear me out.

Unlike other things that I, and others have suggested, the idea is to have a keybind that 'locks' us into the refueling area once we've hooked up. Not something that guides us in, not something that automatically gets us hooked up, just something to keep us in place until we've either maxed out out tanks, or, move the stick/throttle to disconnect (Similar to disengaging alt hold or ATC).

Now, I know many people may not like the idea, and that's fine. This would be an option that's 'off' by default, and can be turned on by those needing just a little bit of help staying hooked up to the tanker... provided we're within the parameters first (hooked up, throttle/stick in the correct position).

Now, would it engage automatically once we hook up? No. It would have to be activated once the plane connects to the tanker.

Who would it help most? Well, obviously new players. But it would also help those who are using the 'simpler' control setups (IE, the cheap sticks and throttles). Not saying that people with those sticks are unable to do it (I know a guy that does it with a PS4 controller), but it would still be a helpful tool for those struggling with those tasks.

What do you guys think? Think it would help? Or do you think I'm nuts?

OK - I heard you out... now for the pitchfork.    (just kidding)

But to throw a thought in - it seems there'd almost be as much work involved in getting this to work as a full AAR assist system that hooks a player up too - so I don't see why this would be proposed differently. In fact, you could do what you want with a full AAR system, but simply just not 'engage' the AAR assist until after you've hooked up, so it only takes over from there.

So, not to shoot your idea down, but from that perspective I wouldn't support what you're proposing but if the effort was going to be made, I would rather see a full AAR assist system as opposed to this where players can choose at what point it kicks in. (If my hunch on dev effort is correct that is)

Secondly - what you're asking for would require devs to take time away from other things in order to accommodate this. When it comes to such requests, I'm not against them - but want to make provision that good number of players would actually use and benefit it from what tasks the developers may alternatively work on. In this intance - I don't have a clue as to how many people this may assist, but I would support a full AAR assist system (full, not partial so you can have both) if the player base warrants that. 

I myself find great satisfaction in doing it for real and accomplishing it to a point where I can do whenever I need, but I have seen some players spent countless hours and never being able to achieve it successfully, and the ability for them not to have to miss out on certain MP missions because they can't AAR would definitely be a plus - so figure there would probably be a number of players in this situation - but how many I don't know. Probably would have been worth creating this thread as a poll instead.

[SharpeXB]

When you figure out AAR you should realize that getting connected and staying connected use the same skills. In the case of the basket, staying connected is actually the easier part. So if you have managed to connect you’re making progress. 
 

An auto-stay-connected option would just end up as another multiplayer mission game aid setting. If a server didn’t have this enabled on the mission you’d be out of luck there. And it doesn’t seem like a good training aid. Better to just put in some more practice. 
 

As for controllers, unless yours is broken or defective it’s good enough. AAR doesn’t require expensive controllers, it just takes time and practice. 
 

Lastly, AAR is not required to play DCS. You can fly plenty of missions, online and offline without it. Even the fast fighters like the Hornet can stay in the air a very long time if you manage the fuel. You can fly for as long as most people are probably willing to play in a given session. So the game doesn’t really need this assist. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Exorcet]

9 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

So, not to shoot your idea down, but from that perspective I wouldn't support what you're proposing but if the effort was going to be made, I would rather see a full AAR assist system as opposed to this where players can choose at what point it kicks in. (If my hunch on dev effort is correct that is)

Yeah I agree, I feel like you might as well do a full assist. Come to think of it with the jump to plane feature we already have a way to let AI take control of your plane. It could be modified for AAR.

[ST0RM]

I dont see any learning from a system that does the work for you. AAR is a skill. A difficult one, but achievable with practice. Even a basic stick and throttle is functional enough to make contact and stay in formation on the basket or boom. 
As has been said, it's not required for play or mission completion. Further, this will pull away a coder from the must higher priority core optimization. 

[Exorcet]

23 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

I dont see any learning from a system that does the work for you. AAR is a skill. A difficult one, but achievable with practice. Even a basic stick and throttle is functional enough to make contact and stay in formation on the basket or boom. 
As has been said, it's not required for play or mission completion. Further, this will pull away a coder from the must higher priority core optimization. 

The entire game is optional. Learning is not the point, as you said it's not necessary to learn, so people can go without learning it.

We also don't know what this will cost in terms of ED workload, but I doubt it will have any impact on multicore. In fact while we're on the subject, maybe it's good to point out that ED should have multiple projects going on at once to maximize their output, or else they could just have 1 employee doing 1 task at a time.

[MAXsenna]

I think you're nuts, for yet again bringing up this subject. Sorry, couldn't resist. 

I totally agree with Sharpy. An aid like this will just do you dis-favours. It just requires practice, and patience. I have yet to do it in the Harrier, but it's on my list to try. I can do all others. Can even do the Tomcat on a Viking in a turn now, with an old "sloppy" MS FFB2. Just had to find out that I had to lower the seat to actually see the tanker, then through trial and error where to place the "pod" in the windshields, and resist to look at basket.  

Mission/campaign makers have overcome this obstacle too.

EDIT: The easiest aircraft to tank a basket, is actually the free UH-60L module, and it's good for actual practice and morale! 

Edited October 3, 2022 by MAXsenna

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Yeah, automating it isn't going to help you. Providing some kind of air-to-air assist tool akin to the supercarrier's meatball overlay? Now we're cookin' with gas. Actually, even just having a little display that updates you on tanker movement ahead of time and keeps track of its speed would be pretty awesome.

[Varioss]

Every time a thread like this appear it goes like this:
The author thinks that he has a great idea that would improve the game accessibility. Then the larpers come and say stuff like "In real life you don't have any assists" or

On 10/3/2022 at 6:10 PM, ST0RM said:

I dont see any learning from a system that does the work for you. AAR is a skill

I disagree completely, all modern games try to be as accessible as possible and dcs has no features like that.

On 10/3/2022 at 8:53 PM, MAXsenna said:

It just requires practice, and patience

Some people can't just spend so much time to polish one small skill. And there is tons of valid reasons like lack of time or health conditions. Whether it's ADHD or an illnesses that limit our motor skills like Parkinson.In a previous thread regarding this topic somebody used the argument of "There is no disabled people in military and they shouldn't play dcs either" kinda funny since Wags is working in ED.

What about people flying on keyboard and game pads? Not everybody has full simpits with virpils and other expensive gear. A lot of people fly with simple sticks that lack the precision to refuel.

I personally don't care about following procedures in dcs, I land straight in without doing patterns nor fly the ball correctly. Does it affect you all? No. So how would automatic ARR destroy your fun? It's ridiculous.

The argument of "It would take ED too much time and would slow down the development". Do you really think this lowly of ED that a simple feature like that would cause other features to be delayed in any meaningful way?

Let's look at an example: We are on a public server with 1 tanker. Somebody is "trying" to refuel but he isn't that proficient and it takes him long time to hook up and even if he succeeds he gets disconnected soon. There is a person waiting to refuel but he can't, he is pissed and if he is unlucky enough he runs out of fuel and crashes. Let's assume the worst case he crashes into the tanker and nobody can refuel for some time and everybody is pissed.
Now with the automatic refuelling, he gets near tanker, he instantly gets hooked up refuels and is gone in 2-3 minutes and everybody is happy. Do you know he has auto AAR? No you don't. It increases everybody's fun in multiplayer environment.

I am sure this is a case of silent majority, the loud ones are the one that sit on forum 24/7 and complain about every feature. While the majority of DCS doesn't use forums, and probably would use this feature.  I really hope NineLine or BigNewy will finally notice that we need features like that and pass it to the developers.

[mikkebos]

Great idea with refueling assist. Can't  understand theres "pro full extra milsim guys" which can't understand that maybe somebody can't/dont wan't to learn AAR, this is really skilly thing. It would be great if we could have some kind of "suction" between probe/boom and port. If somebody don't want to use it they can switch it off.

[SharpeXB]

I think it’s amusing on these threads that people who can’t AAR seem to think they can invent a way to teach something they haven’t learned to do themselves. 
And the value of practice (the only thing that works) is completely ignored… 

45 minutes ago, Varioss said:

Some people can't just spend so much time to polish one small skill.

I’m curious how many people here learned to play a sport, studied for a test, played a musical instrument etc. and figured that this skill or learning would only take a few hours. Most skilled tasks require weeks or months of practice, not hours. Put in that sort of time at this and you’ll get it. 

[SharpeXB]

50 minutes ago, Varioss said:

Now with the automatic refuelling, he gets near tanker, he instantly gets hooked up refuels and is gone in 2-3 minutes and everybody is happy. Do you know he has auto AAR? No you don't. It increases everybody's fun in multiplayer environment.

The ability to effortlessly AAR would have an impact on the gameplay dynamic. Mainly every player running around on full burner. Most servers want to calm down the action by enforcing cold starts, limited weapons and fuel for good reason. So an “easy auto” AAR setting would need to be mission/server controlled. Not everyone wants Air-Quake style action. 

[Varioss]

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I think it’s amusing on these threads that people who can’t AAR seem to think they can invent a way to teach something they haven’t learned to do themselves. 
And the value of practice (the only thing that works) is completely ignored… 

I’m curious how many people here learned to play a sport, studied for a test, played a musical instrument etc. and figured that this skill or learning would only take a few hours. Most skilled tasks require weeks or months of practice, not hours. Put in that sort of time at this and you’ll get it. 

The skill you provided are actually useful real life skills not an skill in video game. Don't compare 2 different things.

 

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The ability to effortlessly AAR would have an impact on the gameplay dynamic. Mainly every player running around on full burner. Most servers want to calm down the action by enforcing cold starts, limited weapons and fuel for good reason. So an “easy auto” AAR setting would need to be mission/server controlled. Not everyone wants Air-Quake style action. 

Most servers are like that already so it won't change anything.

[SharpeXB]

57 minutes ago, Varioss said:

What about people flying on keyboard and game pads? Not everybody has full simpits with virpils and other expensive gear. A lot of people fly with simple sticks that lack the precision to refuel.

And again, unless your stick is defective or broken it will work for AAR. Flying with a keyboard is nuts though and doesn’t merit consideration. 

1 minute ago, Varioss said:

The skill you provided are actually useful real life skills not an skill in video game. Don't compare 2 different things.

Video games aren’t real skills? How so? If this isn’t as important as “real life” then why bother at all?

3 minutes ago, Varioss said:

Most servers are like that already so it won't change anything.

There are severs with different gameplay styles. Some would not appreciate easy automatic AAR I’m sure. If this was indeed a feature it would have to be mission setting like all the other gameplay aids. 

[ST0RM]

1 hour ago, Varioss said:

The skill you provided are actually useful real life skills not an skill in video game. Don't compare 2 different things.

Have you ever refueled in real life? Probably not. And there is no easy button. 
Btw, I have done both. Both as a receiver and as the tanker. It's work and took a lot of..... sim time, until I got it.

You guys want to dumb down every difficult function of DCS to make it more accessible. Plain and simple, AAR isnt a must. However, a learned skill set is there for those willing to put in the time and learn. 
Otherwise, War Thunder or Ace Combat might be better suited for them. Its not elitism, its just life. Things are more difficult than others and giving everyone an easy button and trophy for 10th place is stupid. 

[Varioss]

11 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If this isn’t as important as “real life” then why bother at all?

It’s literally a game. It’s not important, you are larping.

11 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Flying with a keyboard is nuts though and doesn’t merit consideration.

On what basis do you say that? Do you have data saying “only 0,5% of players play on keyboard?" Dcs allows it so why shouldn’t it be considered.

9 hours ago, ST0RM said:

Btw, I have done both. Both as a receiver and as the tanker. It's work and took a lot of..... sim time, until I got it.

Wow, and? 
It’s not real life it’s a video game, no differences between war thunder. There is a simulator mode and arcade mode and for some reason the users are not complying?

It is a elitsm and I have no idea why you think it’s not… No wait you are from military it all makes sense kek, It’s always the military people complaining about giving everybody fair chance. Superiority complex much? 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Varioss

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, Varioss said:

It’s literally a game. It’s not important, you are larping.

Games require skill and practice. If you want a form of entertainment that doesn’t require that, watch a movie. If this isn’t important why are you continuing the discussion?

7 hours ago, Varioss said:

On what basis do you say that? Do you have data saying “only 0,5% of players play on keyboard?" Dcs allows it so why shouldn’t it be considered.

A keyboard is just not the optimal controller for this game. That should be obvious. It’s an option for new players to try the free game but it’s hardly suitable for something like AAR. New players don’t need to AAR as it’s an advanced skill.

[Varioss]

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Games require skill and practice. If you want a form of entertainment that doesn’t require that, watch a movie. If this isn’t important why are you continuing the discussion?

Well it's clear you are stuck in past century when nobody thought about accessibility. Why do you hate others so much as to limit what they can do? Why can't you just ignore this thread never turn the option on and live on?

[Exorcet]

13 hours ago, ST0RM said:

You guys want to dumb down every difficult function of DCS to make it more accessible. Plain and simple, AAR isnt a must. However, a learned skill set is there for those willing to put in the time and learn. 

Otherwise, War Thunder or Ace Combat might be better suited for them. Its not elitism, its just life. Things are more difficult than others and giving everyone an easy button and trophy for 10th place is stupid. 

This is kind of backwards when you think about it. AAR assist aren't dumbing down, they're just a request to accommodate real life. We're discussing a feature in a simulation, "difficulty" isn't a requirement. It is entirely within the bounds of reality to have some part of the sim code assist a player. If you want to ARR realistically, as I do, that's great. You shouldn't care about how other people want to do it.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, Varioss said:

Well it's clear you are stuck in past century when nobody thought about accessibility. Why do you hate others so much as to limit what they can do? Why can't you just ignore this thread never turn the option on and live on?

Using a keyboard for this game is like trying to eat soup with a fork. That’s not a matter of accessibility it’s just a fact. I’m not sure why this needs explaining. They type of player who uses a keyboard doesn’t need to AAR. If fact most players really don’t need to AAR

The option, if there was one, would certainly be server/mission controlled and likely you would not see it enabled for the same reason you don’t see unlimited fuel allowed in MP either. Easy Auto AAR would essentially be giving players unlimited fuel with all the gameplay consequences that involves. 
Easy Auto AAR wouldn’t be needed in SP either since the player can always select unlimited fuel. So if neither MP or SP would use this option then why have it?

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

If you want to ARR realistically, as I do, that's great. You shouldn't care about how other people want to do it.

It would matter in multiplayer. Again this would basically be giving players unlimited fuel. 

[Exorcet]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Easy Auto AAR wouldn’t be needed in SP either since the player can always select unlimited fuel. So if neither MP or SP would use this option then why have it?

They aren't exchangeable. Unlimited fuel eliminates fuel management and fuel weight effects. If used for training for example, it's inferior to AAR assist.

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It would matter in multiplayer. Again this would basically be giving players unlimited fuel. 

It doesn't matter anymore any more than tanking already does. If you can AAR refuel, you have just as much fuel as someone who has AAR assist.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

They aren't exchangeable. Unlimited fuel eliminates fuel management and fuel weight effects. If used for training for example, it's inferior to AAR assist.

So if a player cares about that sort of realism then they should learn to AAR. I don’t see how you’d want that sort of realism combined with a plane that flies itself. And again AAR isn’t necessary for most missions so you can still appreciate all the fuel management you like in the game. 

14 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

They aren't exchangeable. Unlimited fuel eliminates fuel management and fuel weight effects. If used for training for example, it's inferior to AAR assist.

It doesn't matter anymore any more than tanking already does. If you can AAR refuel, you have just as much fuel as someone who has AAR assist.

Yeah but manually performing AAR requires some effort. Again how many servers do you see with the option for unlimited fuel? Easy AAR would get the same treatment online I’m sure. 

[Exorcet]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So if a player cares about that sort of realism then they should learn to AAR. I don’t see how you’d want that sort of realism combined with a plane that flies itself. And again AAR isn’t necessary for most missions so you can still appreciate all the fuel management you like in the game. 

The same reason people get FC3 instead of FF planes or Ace Combat. There only options aren't the extreme ones. You don't see... and that's fine, you're the only one with your pair of eyes.

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah but manually performing AAR requires some effort. Again how many servers do you see with the option for unlimited fuel? Easy AAR would get the same treatment online I’m sure. 

Then the issue isn't people flying around in AB as previously stated. There aren't servers with unlimited fuel options because it's unrealistic probably. AAR assist would not have that problem.

[shagrat]

Am 3.10.2022 um 03:47 schrieb Tank50us:

OK, before anyone starts grabbing their pitchforks and torches, just... hear me out.

Unlike other things that I, and others have suggested, the idea is to have a keybind that 'locks' us into the refueling area once we've hooked up. Not something that guides us in, not something that automatically gets us hooked up, just something to keep us in place until we've either maxed out out tanks, or, move the stick/throttle to disconnect (Similar to disengaging alt hold or ATC).

Now, I know many people may not like the idea, and that's fine. This would be an option that's 'off' by default, and can be turned on by those needing just a little bit of help staying hooked up to the tanker... provided we're within the parameters first (hooked up, throttle/stick in the correct position).

Now, would it engage automatically once we hook up? No. It would have to be activated once the plane connects to the tanker.

Who would it help most? Well, obviously new players. But it would also help those who are using the 'simpler' control setups (IE, the cheap sticks and throttles). Not saying that people with those sticks are unable to do it (I know a guy that does it with a PS4 controller), but it would still be a helpful tool for those struggling with those tasks.

What do you guys think? Think it would help? Or do you think I'm nuts?

Am 3.10.2022 um 15:55 schrieb SharpeXB:

When you figure out AAR you should realize that getting connected and staying connected use the same skills. In the case of the basket, staying connected is actually the easier part. So if you have managed to connect you’re making progress. 
 

An auto-stay-connected option would just end up as another multiplayer mission game aid setting. If a server didn’t have this enabled on the mission you’d be out of luck there. And it doesn’t seem like a good training aid. Better to just put in some more practice. 
 

As for controllers, unless yours is broken or defective it’s good enough. AAR doesn’t require expensive controllers, it just takes time and practice. 
 

Lastly, AAR is not required to play DCS. You can fly plenty of missions, online and offline without it. Even the fast fighters like the Hornet can stay in the air a very long time if you manage the fuel. You can fly for as long as most people are probably willing to play in a given session. So the game doesn’t really need this assist. 

 

 

Yeah, that's the reason multiple campaigns have very creative "automatic AAR" or "Spawn me in again after AAR"solutions, because it is "not required".

Even Content Creators figured, you need a way to circumvent forced AAR for a paid campaign, so their customers don't end up asking for refunds after the first mission.

The fact alone this topic pops up again and again shows it is an issue.

And an option like the take-offs assist, auto rudder, or an "Air-Refueling-Assist" that would basically do, what AI aircraft in mission do all the time without anyone complaining about it... Only if it serves the "I am a more pure simmer than thou" agenda we get complaints about something you wouldn't even notice, as it has no impact, same as AI doing AAR on their own.

I really don't understand the backlash and negativity when it comes to a feature that is similar to other player side options, we have since the first WWII warbird.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

There aren't servers with unlimited fuel options because it's unrealistic probably. AAR assist would not have that problem.

You realize that an Easy Auto AAR option is essentially the same thing as unlimited fuel right? You just fly on burners back to the tanker, press a button and zip back into action. It would lead to very arcade style gameplay. 

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The same reason people get FC3 instead of FF planes or Ace Combat.

And FC3 is going to be moved from DCS into another game, Modern Air Combat. Which is more suited to the Ace Combat style players.