F15E DTM

[Pede]

Anyone know if the DTM will be modeled in any form?

[Ignition]

 

[Kuezy]

Hi, just wondering, what's DTM responsible for? What is it and how does it work?

[tomcat_driver]

4 minutes ago, Kuezy said:

Hi, just wondering, what's DTM responsible for? What is it and how does it work?

"A data transfer module (DTM) set provided pre-programmed information that customized the jet to fly the route the pilot had planned using mission planning computers."

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-15-upgrades.htm

[Kuezy]

4 hours ago, tomcat_driver said:

"A data transfer module (DTM) set provided pre-programmed information that customized the jet to fly the route the pilot had planned using mission planning computers."

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-15-upgrades.htm

Thanks for letting know about that. 

[tomcat_driver]

The F-16C has a similar system.

[Sarge55]

Alas, quite a few planes are equipped with them but not in DCS. 

Hopefully, one day .

[Pede]

2 hours ago, Kuezy said:

Thanks for letting know about that. 

Most importantly it gives us a way to add waypoints/targetpoints etc to the aircraft's computer without having to use the mission editor. For example if you want to use a JSOW on the Hornet in pre-planned mode currently we're restricted to either dropping them on ME waypoints or manually punching in the coordinates in flight for each individual weapon vs the JF17 where you mark it on the F10 map and tell the ground crew to load in on the DTC, plug in the cartridge and have all the points already loaded into your aircraft's computer. Since the F15E can carry 9 JDAM's (or eventually 20 SDB's) you wouldn't have to manually enter the coordinates for each weapon with a functional DTM. 

[tigayot228]

20 minutes ago, Pede said:

Most importantly it gives us a way to add waypoints/targetpoints etc to the aircraft's computer without having to use the mission editor. For example if you want to use a JSOW on the Hornet in pre-planned mode currently we're restricted to either dropping them on ME waypoints or manually punching in the coordinates in flight for each individual weapon vs the JF17 where you mark it on the F10 map and tell the ground crew to load in on the DTC, plug in the cartridge and have all the points already loaded into your aircraft's computer. Since the F15E can carry 9 JDAM's (or eventually 20 SDB's) you wouldn't have to manually enter the coordinates for each weapon with a functional DTM. 

Don't get me wrong, but I do believe that if it's every implemented in DCS, it will be a feature added to the Mission Editor.

[Pede]

14 minutes ago, tigayot228 said:

Don't get me wrong, but I do believe that if it's every implemented in DCS, it will be a feature added to the Mission Editor.

Yes this is something that can already be done with the mission editor but currently on two aircraft (to my knowledge) can do it in mission. This is especially important for multiplayer servers as generally we won't have access to the mission editor. 

[Coole28]

19 minutes ago, tigayot228 said:

Don't get me wrong, but I do believe that if it's every implemented in DCS, it will be a feature added to the Mission Editor.

Implementing DTM as a Mission Editor only thing would be a complete catastrophe.  Anytime you want to change your loadout from anything that isn’t preplanned in your DTM (so basically everytime you play on a multiplayer server) would require you to manual enter what stores you have loaded on each pylon, with the exception of missiles and some GPS munitions.  Thats a lot of clicking for the minimal benefit of watching a DTM insertion animation.

Jf-17 does it pretty well.  Whenever you rearm in game or you input preplanned points (via F10 map), the ground crew will update the DTM for you on the spot.  This aught to be how it is done for every plane, maybe just tweak the F-10 functionality a bit to have a separate PP input rather than making and naming markpoints.

[Spurts]

You don't have an F10 map IRL.  FWIW the Harrier lets you just store up to ten target coords using a TPOD and the UFC.  Move Cursor, Desg, TOO, ENT, repeat until done

 

[Pede]

1 hour ago, Spurts said:

You don't have an F10 map IRL.  FWIW the Harrier lets you just store up to ten target coords using a TPOD and the UFC.  Move Cursor, Desg, TOO, ENT, repeat until done

 

IRL there would be a mission computer on the ground where it would all be plugged in pre-flight, this obviously doesn't exist within DCS. While the TPOD function is effective, it requires you to be within TPOD range to use, for standoff weapons like JSOW, GBU39, LS-6, etc the whole point is that they can be employed well beyond that range. If you want to saturate an SA-11 site or S300 site, you're not going to want to wander into their WEZ trying to setup your munitions, which is why having the ability to input stationary targets into a mission computer and then into the aircraft via a DTC/DTM is important to have. I'm glad to see this functionality will be on the F15E, and maybe this will help push ED to implement it in the F/A 18 and F16 as well. 

[Spurts]

3 hours ago, Pede said:

IRL there would be a mission computer on the ground where it would all be plugged in pre-flight, this obviously doesn't exist within DCS. While the TPOD function is effective, it requires you to be within TPOD range to use, for standoff weapons like JSOW, GBU39, LS-6, etc the whole point is that they can be employed well beyond that range. If you want to saturate an SA-11 site or S300 site, you're not going to want to wander into their WEZ trying to setup your munitions, which is why having the ability to input stationary targets into a mission computer and then into the aircraft via a DTC/DTM is important to have. I'm glad to see this functionality will be on the F15E, and maybe this will help push ED to implement it in the F/A 18 and F16 as well. 

My perspective is colored by me not doing MP server missions but homemade SP missions, so I can do all that stuff in the Mission Editor if I need to.  I wasn't thinking about the MP crowd who don't have that option until I read your reply.  Thanks for the perspective.  

 

FYI, the harrier TPOD can see and target the parts of an S300 site beyond engagement range (I never get engaged outside of 35nm, TPOD sees 45nm) so then it becomes fancy flying time to go under the radar/engagement envelope to lob JDAMs and dodge SA-19s.

 

[Lace]

13 hours ago, Coole28 said:

Implementing DTM as a Mission Editor only thing would be a complete catastrophe.  Anytime you want to change your loadout from anything that isn’t preplanned in your DTM (so basically everytime you play on a multiplayer server) would require you to manual enter what stores you have loaded on each pylon, with the exception of missiles and some GPS munitions.  Thats a lot of clicking for the minimal benefit of watching a DTM insertion animation.

Jf-17 does it pretty well.  Whenever you rearm in game or you input preplanned points (via F10 map), the ground crew will update the DTM for you on the spot.  This aught to be how it is done for every plane, maybe just tweak the F-10 functionality a bit to have a separate PP input rather than making and naming markpoints.

Sorry, I have to disagree.  The only way a DTC makes sense is as part of an improved mission planner (not necessarily mission editor - I believe these should be two separate entities).  Why would you change your loadout from what is planned?  The whole point of planning is to ensure the aircraft is correctly configured for the mission.  I can see why JSOW spammers might wan to to do it your way, but for people who want to fly (and more importantly, plan) realistic missions, then a proper planner and DTC implementation is critical.  I will feel very short changed if all it becomes is a quicker way to enter LL for IAMs so Air-Quakers can get back in the sky faster.

Take the Viper for example - I want the mission planner to be capable of weaponeering, MFD page ordering, CMDS programs, steerpoints, OAPs, VIPs, threat rings (these aren't magic, they need to be entered in planning and are based on intel, not an infallible map), ALOW, Comm ladders, HARM tables, etc.  Basically everything which you would input IRL before you step to the jet, not after.

TL;DR The whole point of a DTC is that it is a planning tool, not a hot-pit shortcut.

[Germane]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Lace:

Sorry, I have to disagree.  The only way a DTC makes sense is as part of an improved mission planner (not necessarily mission editor - I believe these should be two separate entities).  Why would you change your loadout from what is planned?  The whole point of planning is to ensure the aircraft is correctly configured for the mission.  I can see why JSOW spammers might wan to to do it your way, but for people who want to fly (and more importantly, plan) realistic missions, then a proper planner and DTC implementation is critical.  I will feel very short changed if all it becomes is a quicker way to enter LL for IAMs so Air-Quakers can get back in the sky faster.

Take the Viper for example - I want the mission planner to be capable of weaponeering, MFD page ordering, CMDS programs, steerpoints, OAPs, VIPs, threat rings (these aren't magic, they need to be entered in planning and are based on intel, not an infallible map), ALOW, Comm ladders, HARM tables, etc.  Basically everything which you would input IRL before you step to the jet, not after.

TL;DR The whole point of a DTC is that it is a planning tool, not a hot-pit shortcut.

[Coole28]

5 hours ago, Lace said:

Why would you change your loadout from what is planned?

Have you ever played multiplayer?  Loadouts aren’t preplanned in most servers, in the most popular ones you get slapped in a clean plane and it’s up to you to load up and configure the plane to your task.  Nor are missions ever static, there’s a good chance that somebody else already destroyed the target you planned out, or maybe there are already more than enough pilots performing your assigned task so you have to switch to a more needed task.  Flexibility is vital for multiplayer, there really is no way for the mission creator to preplan loadouts in a way that accounts for other players already flying around.

6 hours ago, Lace said:

Take the Viper for example - I want the mission planner to be capable of weaponeering, MFD page ordering, CMDS programs, steerpoints, OAPs, VIPs, threat rings (these aren't magic, they need to be entered in planning and are based on intel, not an infallible map), ALOW, Comm ladders, HARM tables, etc.  Basically everything which you would input IRL before you step to the jet, not after.

I agree wholeheartedly, I’d love to see DTC capable of all these nuances.  I think it’s fine to be able to do this in the mission editor as well.  But for the love of God, don’t lock us out of being able to program the DTC in-game.  At the very least make it the first step after selecting a role prior to jumping in the cockpit.  I would cry real man tears if my MFD page ordering was different based on the host’s preference every time I switched servers.

[Lace]

12 minutes ago, Coole28 said:

Have you ever played multiplayer?  Loadouts aren’t preplanned in most servers, in the most popular ones you get slapped in a clean plane and it’s up to you to load up and configure the plane to your task.  Nor are missions ever static, there’s a good chance that somebody else already destroyed the target you planned out, or maybe there are already more than enough pilots performing your assigned task so you have to switch to a more needed task.  Flexibility is vital for multiplayer, there really is no way for the mission creator to preplan loadouts in a way that accounts for other players already flying around.

Rarely MP, I think the fact that the mission planner is absent from the MP experience is a problem in itself, and something which requires a DTC to fix IMHO.  Why is there such a rush to get airborne?  In SP my step time is normally 20-30mins prior to take-off time, is this too much for MP?

Also, why would two flights be fragged for the same target?  Is there no strategic planning or in MP missions?  Don't people talk to each other before starting to plan?

Although that does remind me of some cold war wisdom - "what would you do if you approach your target and find it a big smoking hole in the ground?" - "make it a bigger smoking hole in the ground!"  

12 minutes ago, Coole28 said:

I agree wholeheartedly, I’d love to see DTC capable of all these nuances.  I think it’s fine to be able to do this in the mission editor as well.  But for the love of God, don’t lock us out of being able to program the DTC in-game.  At the very least make it the first step after selecting a role prior to jumping in the cockpit.  I would cry real man tears if my MFD page ordering was different based on the host’s preference every time I switched servers.

As I said, I believe (and hope, given the planned Dynamic Campaign engine) that the mission planner should be completely separate from the mission editor.  One is for content creators, the other for pre-flight prep and briefing, and this absolutely should be part of the in-game experience.  As you say, it should be an intermediate step between picking a slot, and entering the cockpit.  That should satisfy most users I'd imagine.  The Mission Planner as it currently stands is essentially useless.

However, I have no more power than you to influence the implementation of the F-15E or any other DTC, or make any changes to the current mission planning flow.  

[Coole28]

1 hour ago, Lace said:

Also, why would two flights be fragged for the same target?  Is there no strategic planning or in MP missions?  Don't people talk to each other before starting to plan?

Pretty much the only time there is planning (or any communication really) in multiplayer is if you are playing with friends.  In theory there are set roles or tasks for each slot in most missions, but in practice most players end up doing whatever they want.  It doesn’t help that people all join at different times, it’s hard to run an escort when the flight you are supposed to be escorting took off half an hour before you even joined the server.  There’s no skill barrier either; nothing like watching your SEAD crash into the Black Sea because they didn’t know you have to unfold your wings BEFORE taking off.  Hence the need for flexibility in multiplayer, the ability to switch roles and adjust fire as needed.  There’s just no way for multiplayer mission creators to plan around the human factor on public servers.

[Lace]

5 minutes ago, Coole28 said:

Pretty much the only time there is planning (or any communication really) in multiplayer is if you are playing with friends.  In theory there are set roles or tasks for each slot in most missions, but in practice most players end up doing whatever they want.  It doesn’t help that people all join at different times, it’s hard to run an escort when the flight you are supposed to be escorting took off half an hour before you even joined the server.  There’s no skill barrier either; nothing like watching your SEAD crash into the Black Sea because they didn’t know you have to unfold your wings BEFORE taking off.  Hence the need for flexibility in multiplayer, the ability to switch roles and adjust fire as needed.  There’s just no way for multiplayer mission creators to plan around the human factor on public servers.

Sounds a lot like AI wingmen to be fair.  

[Scott-S6]

On 10/20/2022 at 7:35 AM, Lace said:

Take the Viper for example - I want the mission planner to be capable of weaponeering, MFD page ordering, CMDS programs, steerpoints, OAPs, VIPs, threat rings (these aren't magic, they need to be entered in planning and are based on intel, not an infallible map), ALOW, Comm ladders, HARM tables, etc.  Basically everything which you would input IRL before you step to the jet, not after.

TL;DR The whole point of a DTC is that it is a planning tool, not a hot-pit shortcut.

Even just to be a hot-pit tool (which would also be a desirable thing to have) it still needs to be able to do most of those things. If we have to configure MFD pages, radar settings, etc. for each mode every time then it's going to be of minimal real benefit. If we can see our preferences as a default start point which we can then alter for the upcoming flight then it become useful both as a proper planning tool and as a hot-pit tool.