Laser illumination by JTAC drones

[Moxica]

I have recently had success in taking down targets with lasing help from MQ9 Reaper in a simple training mission I made.
That was a lot of fun!
In a new mission, I try to take down a SAM from behind cover.
-Not so fun.
I need to expose the copter too much.
My question is; What do the sensor need to see before I can call "Spot"?
I thought it would be enough to see the laser beam, but it seem I must have LOS to target before I can fire.
That kind of defeats the purpose.
I feel there is something I haven't learned yet. Is it?

[admiki]

No, you don't need LOS, but you do need to be pointing helicopter within limits for seeker to be able to actually spot the laser once you fire.

 

[Floyd1212]

It sounds like you are only partially taking advantage of your lasing partner, but are still in LOBL mode? You should definitely be able to launch at a target from behind complete cover that someone else is lasing for you.

Are you switching over to LOAL mode for these shots, and aligning the aircraft to the known location of the target?

This thread might help, but there are many others that discuss LOAL techniques, with or without George.

 

[Moxica]

I asked Casmo how to switch to LOAL. He said I was already in LOAL by default.
I am in CP/G seat, SKR as acq source.
How do I switch to loal? (If I am in LOBL, how do I know?)
I've only seen those acronyms in the George dialogue.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Moxica

[Floyd1212]

More info can be found in the manual around page 306.

Casmo also has a good video that explains how this works.  (Maybe he didn't have his whiteboard at-the-ready to go into detail when you asked him last night? )

 

 

[Moxica]

Thank you.
I've seen that video, but it avoids some critical points in my ignorance. 
I know the difference in lo/hi/dir etc..
I'm confused because I'm not sure if I was in LOBL or LOAL, because I have no indication on which mode is active.
Also: I can not fire until I have a solid box; And I do not get a solid box until I'm in LOS of the target.
Some info must be avoiding me, or hitting that teflon part of my brain.  

Edited October 11, 2022 by Moxica

[Moxica]

Thanx a lot!
I think that might have hit the spot!

[Moxica]

Thanx guys! I just made it work, thanks to you. Wow! This is so undescribingly cool!

[simo-dj]

1 ora fa, Moxica ha scritto:

Thanx guys! I just made it work, thanks to you. Wow! This is so undescribingly cool!

Those good old time when in longbow 2 you had to press pgup/pgdown to switch LOBL/LOAL...

[Moxica]

Xcactly!  

[Recluse]

7 hours ago, Moxica said:

I have recently had success in taking down targets with lasing help from MQ9 Reaper in a simple training mission I made.
That was a lot of fun!
In a new mission, I try to take down a SAM from behind cover.
-Not so fun.
I need to expose the copter too much.
My question is; What do the sensor need to see before I can call "Spot"?
I thought it would be enough to see the laser beam, but it seem I must have LOS to target before I can fire.
That kind of defeats the purpose.
I feel there is something I haven't learned yet. Is it?

As an aside, I have recently become a convert to the CTLD Autolase script.  I always preferred the built in JTAC/AFAC for the "realistic" radio comms, but there were so many times when all I would get was ABORT! ABORT! ABORT! so I switched to CTLD.  Less "REALISTIC" but more reliable (and quicker to send Hellfires down range!).

Great fun for the type of TRAINING scenarios you mention.  I resisted for the longest time but it turned out to be just as easy or easier to do in the Mission Editor than the Standard JTAC/AFAC.

 

Everything you need to know here:

https://github.com/ciribob/DCS-CTLD#jtac-automatic-targeting-and-laser

[admiki]

Drone would give me a lot of abort comands, JTAC never had me abort. Not sure why drone is more finnicky.

[Recluse]

10 minutes ago, admiki said:

Drone would give me a lot of abort comands, JTAC never had me abort. Not sure why drone is more finnicky.

I've had it happen with both. I kind of thought the DRONE would be less likely to lose LOS on the target and would be more reliable. When I first started messing with it, I never got an ABORT unless I did something stupid, but lately it seemed to happen with no reason, so I switched to CTLD.

[Recluse]

3 hours ago, simo-dj said:

Those good old time when in longbow 2 you had to press pgup/pgdown to switch LOBL/LOAL...

If I recall correctly from my LB2 days (and what days they were!!), the symbology was the opposite of what it is now:  LOBL was the SMALL box and LOAL was the BIG box. or maybe I am remembering the Radar Hellfire symbology because that is almost all I used if I could!

Edited October 11, 2022 by Recluse

[simo-dj]

13 ore fa, Recluse ha scritto:

If I recall correctly from my LB2 days (and what days they were!!), the symbology was the opposite of what it is now:  LOBL was the SMALL box and LOAL was the BIG box. or maybe I am remembering the Radar Hellfire symbology because that is almost all I used if I could!

 

Weren't they the same size?

I agree, they were great days!

Pls excuse @Moxica, @admiki and @Recluse didn't mean to fill this thread with good-ol-days stories and to go completely off topic.

[Moxica]

No need to excuse.
That is a good memory.
I have tried LB2 on an emulator, and watched some movies on youtube. But that sound is enerving, and today, I could not hold out ten minutes.
Most sounds in DCS are fantastic,  (Except the wingman in target-rich areas)
Sometimes i get Deja vu's when flying the apache.  I can not point out details, but I'm pretty sure some actions are identical til the LB2.

PS! What/when should I call out "Spot"?
What is that; I am not able to spot any sparkle or laser beam. So I just hit it, not having a clue about its significance.
"SPOT! ..i think"    

Edit: I found:

CAS 101: Close Air Support Basics. – Task Group Warrior

Edited October 12, 2022 by Moxica

[Poptart]

In real life, the JTAC would never ask you to call spot for a LOAL shot where you are behind cover. For the purpose of the game you can call it whenever you want to advance the dialog. 

[Recluse]

No idea whether it is right or wrong, but I always call SPOT when my sensors have locked on (e.g. AGM-65E, LST,  in a fixed wing, (F/A-18, AV8-B, A-10 etc..)or, in the Apache, when the SKR finds it in a DIR mode. Agreed that for LOAL behind cover you shouldn't get LOS to the SPOT, so it is just for game play purpose, though I imagine in Real Life, the JTAC/FAC would absolutely want you to confirm that you saw the laser IF POSSIBLE before letting go with ordnance especially if there were friendlies about. 

 

As a Memory Lane Aside, I remember always thinking in LB2 how hard it would really be for the CP/G to actually have to use the sensors to find targets without the Magical T(argeting) key with the TADS.  Now I know that it is indeed HARD, though possible.  Anxious to see if the DCS AH-64 FCR will be as close to Magical as the LB2 FCR/MMW Hellfire combo.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Recluse

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

On 10/11/2022 at 6:14 PM, Moxica said:

I have recently had success in taking down targets with lasing help from MQ9 Reaper in a simple training mission I made.
 

Was wondering if you also used the Reaper with moving targets. I tried it on a moving tank column in SP, Atlantic. The Reaper would lase the moving tank but not accurately enough. So the missiles kept hitting near the tank but not on the tank. Stationary targets were ok though. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Fakum]

I am in the process of learning how to enter coordinates in, in this manner. I did watch Redkites video as well. I have not yet attempted to apply any of this yet, and I have a question. In Casmos vid above, at 7:12, Casmo is receiving coordinates from laser source, and the source states the coordinates starting at "CX"? Why is he not calling out the "37T" 1st? Would you expect to get the entire readout when receiving coordinates from anyone? Thanks,

[Raptor9]

15 minutes ago, Fakum said:

 states the coordinates starting at "CX"? Why is he not calling out the "37T" 1st? Would you expect to get the entire readout when receiving coordinates from anyone? Thanks,

Not usually. It is pretty typical to only get the Square identifier "CX" followed by the Easting/Northing "12341234". The Grid zone designator is extremely large, and especially with helicopters, you are almost always occupying the same Grid zone as everyone else sending/receiving the coordinates, so it helps with brevity.

[Floyd1212]

You can see here the 37T grid (shown by the red boundries) covers a large portion of the map, and is assumed in their situation.  If they were operating on the boundary with another grid, it would be important to include that as well.

null

[Fakum]

Excellent explanation guys, thanks for the clarification. Understood!

[simo-dj]

Hello everybody,

I'm training with AFAC with simple mission made by me with ME. Sometimes everything goes well, sometimes i can't spot laser, sometimes a i get "abort abort abort".

Just to make things simpler and straight (and just to know) is there a sort of checklist both for pilot and cp/g to follow when engaging enemies with JTAC? I searched but found anything.

Thanks a lot and happy landings

[antiload]

1 hour ago, simo-dj said:

Hello everybody,

I'm training with AFAC with simple mission made by me with ME. Sometimes everything goes well, sometimes i can't spot laser, sometimes a i get "abort abort abort".

Just to make things simpler and straight (and just to know) is there a sort of checklist both for pilot and cp/g to follow when engaging enemies with JTAC? I searched but found anything.

Thanks a lot and happy landings

H, I had the same issue. You have to follow the JTAC promts in order - Please see my video below