Virpil CM3 base - Issue with clutches

[HC_Official]

Bought the Virpil CM3 base as I thought it would have been an upgrade over my Virpil CM2 base. I fly helicopters a lot in DCS so a dead stick config would be great, but there appears to be an issue with the CM3 base when you use the clutches

 

[jnr4817]

Total bummer. Can you devise any reason this may be happening?

[SunDevilPilot]

I ran my CM3, 200mm Extension and Alpha grip for a while with no springs and just the drag clutches ever so slightly on..  My precision for hovering  went way down.  Went back to the light springs, the soft center cam and no dampers. I read in the Apache DCS manual the helicopter does provide resistance like the springs would do..  Only,  on the real helicopter the feedback can move with the stick when it is force trimmed. 

I fly way better with the springs active.

I too was hoping for more with the clutches in the CM3.

 

[Smashy]

On 10/17/2022 at 10:23 PM, SunDevilPilot said:

Went back to the light springs, the soft center cam and no dampers.

Did you go with the Cosmo or Avia cams?

[SunDevilPilot]

The avia cams…. The ones that were installed by the factory. 

[jnr4817]

On 10/17/2022 at 10:23 PM, SunDevilPilot said:

I ran my CM3, 200mm Extension and Alpha grip for a while with no springs and just the drag clutches ever so slightly on..  My precision for hovering  went way down.  Went back to the light springs, the soft center cam and no dampers. I read in the Apache DCS manual the helicopter does provide resistance like the springs would do..  Only,  on the real helicopter the feedback can move with the stick when it is force trimmed. 

I fly way better with the springs active.

I too was hoping for more with the clutches in the CM3.

 

What plate is this on the bottom of your CM3 base connecting it to the 8020?

 

[SunDevilPilot]

On 1/12/2023 at 2:28 PM, jnr4817 said:

What plate is this on the bottom of your CM3 base connecting it to the 8020?

 

The mounting plate comes from MonsterTechUSA. Both the Virpil Warbird and CM3 bases use the same mounting plate. You can get it grey like mine or black.  Great company with some really nice mounting solutions (just a fan, not associated with them).

[jnr4817]

Thank you sir 

[AKA_Clutter]

Is there any 'solution" to this issue?  ONe that smooths out the stickiness when moving in the diagonal directions?  Sounded very promising.

[friese01]

I have the same issue! Haven't flown the Huey for a while because of that unsatisfactory feel. So only flew Jets for like 4 months now. But also a very unsatisfying mushy feel in and around the centre position with the standard avia cams (the ones that were pre-installed). Tried with all springs, loose and tight. Tried it with 200mm extension and without. Same sh**.
Decided to go back to the CM2 with 100mm extension. Waiting for the order to be completed for 2 months now. 
Very unpleased with the quality of the CM3.

 

[Chapa]

Same feeling, big deception. The feeling is not good and strange at the center.

With the 20cm extension and TM F18 stick, the aviacam with no center can not be used even with the strongest spring. Except the aviacam hard and soft center with the strongest spring, every other combination is crap and unusable.

Clutches are toys and feeling is bad. It just allow to reduce a little bit the reverse force. Not bad but a toy with lot of marketing and not what people expect.

The fact is that I am now not happy with Virpil and the CM3 base confirms what I thought.

The warbird base is very nice but all other Virpil stuff I own have quality and design flaws (CM3 base, Throttle v2, warbird stick)

Quality is not top notch and from my point of view, Virpil is overrated (cheap buttons, hat that break or with strange behaviour, axis value that oscillate around a center value, mechanical plays here and there…)

My advice is to skip the CM3 base and avoid most of the Youtuber that don’t tell the true story… even well know in the communauty. Pretty sure it will finish in a closet and probably my last virpil buy.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Chapa

[friese01]

@Chapa: Any suggestions what hardware to go for instead? 
I was happy with the mechanical precision and quality of the CM2 (especially compared to the CM3).

[dburne]

18 hours ago, Chapa said:

Same feeling, big deception. The feeling is not good and strange at the center.

With the 20cm extension and TM F18 stick, the aviacam with no center can not be used even with the strongest spring. Except the aviacam hard and soft center with the strongest spring, every other combination is crap and unusable.

Clutches are toys and feeling is bad. It just allow to reduce a little bit the reverse force. Not bad but a toy with lot of marketing and not what people expect.

The fact is that I am now not happy with Virpil and the CM3 base confirms what I thought.

The warbird base is very nice but all other Virpil stuff I own have quality and design flaws (CM3 base, Throttle v2, warbird stick)

Quality is not top notch and from my point of view, Virpil is overrated (cheap buttons, hat that break or with strange behaviour, axis value that oscillate around a center value, mechanical plays here and there…)

My advice is to skip the CM3 base and avoid most of the Youtuber that don’t tell the true story… even well know in the communauty. Pretty sure it will finish in a closet and probably my last virpil buy.

 

 

 

No need to store in a closet, demand is pretty high on Virpil products currently and doubt you would have any trouble selling it and getting most of your money back. You might even ask Virpil about a return.

 

3 hours ago, friese01 said:

@Chapa: Any suggestions what hardware to go for instead? 
I was happy with the mechanical precision and quality of the CM2 (especially compared to the CM3).

 

Well in the flight sim boutique hardware lineup, we have Virpil, VKB, and WinWing. I have experience with both Virpil and VKB and consider both to be very good, WinWing I have no experience with at all.

Edited February 28, 2023 by dburne

[Chapa]

@friese01 I have also the new realsimulator f16 stick and base. So for modern jet, I think it is the good choice. But for warbirds and helo, I don’t know.

Virpil warBRD base is great but can’t use extensions with it.

Never tried VKB stick and base but I like my VKB pedals. I would be curious to try and also the FFB stick from Brunner.

Virpil remains a good choice overall. Personally, I would wait two more product iterations before jumping to wing wing that looks really promising 

@dburne You are right. I will wait the F15 to decide (but I bought the MONSTERTECH chair to have a center joystick with extension. So my big deception :))) 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Chapa

[Tepnox]

On 10/15/2022 at 4:50 PM, HC_Official said:

Bought the Virpil CM3 base as I thought it would have been an upgrade over my Virpil CM2 base. I fly helicopters a lot in DCS so a dead stick config would be great, but there appears to be an issue with the CM3 base when you use the clutches

 

I think that this works the way by design (2 clutches per axis - so it is separated by design). I have a new WarBRD-D with clutches and it behaves nearly the same like in your video. The only way to partly mitigate this issue is to lower the clutch resistance to the lowest possible point where you have a very low resistance but the stick still gets fixed in the last position. Light springs also do help to get less pressure resistance.

Using the WarBRD-D with a 200mm extension from Virpil with a TM F-16 Grip and CosmoCam with center and light springs as a dead stick. Works "ok" with the Apache but if I am honest I would be much more precise hovering with my regular WarBRD (no extension) and the regular in-game central trim position mode.

I have this new center-joystick-setup since 1 week so I think I need to practice some more flying to get a full picture and a final result. The dead stick is nice for muscle memory and helo-flying but some precision gets lost with the clutches for sure. Especially when hovering.

[HC_Official]

it will take a while to get used to it for sure

[BigBANGtheory]

but the YT video you posted at the start @HC_Official then goes on to explain in his next video how to essentially fix the issue by disassembly and the application of Nyogel 767a grease around the clutch rings:

Now I fully agree if people are of the opinion "but its a super expensive product I shouldn't have to do this..." 

but if it works (spoiler alert I think it does) then go for it.

What I would say is a genuine ball ache though is if you want to move from a deadstick heli configuration to jets and space sims because I've found it better to disengage the cams completely rather than live with a de-tensioned spring so in that situation you can't quickly loosen the clutches and tighten the springs. I'm still experimenting though so more for me to learn as well.