KA-50 changes after latest patch

[okopanja]

@HobelHi I did not have much time, so I decided to focus for now on shkval itself. Besides I knew there will be a need for emergency patch to be released, so I delayed the tests.

Here is the topic I have created:

It would be nice if other Ka-50 pilots could reproduce this and post more images.

[Husk]

3 hours ago, HC_Official said:

agreed

Me too!

 

[bingbean]

1 hour ago, æck said:

why on earth are you guys against the module getting changes that make it more like the real thing? why even play simulator games if that's not what you're after?

I personally like the new changes and hope the FC3 modules get a similar touch-up.

There is no much other military helicopter games on the market. So not much other choose. 

If they would have fix at least one broken things with today hot fix i will not say anything, but what 2.8 broke is still broken. 

English cockpit still combined with Russian, ABRIS speed is not correct in KMH, keyboard hotkeys do not work correctly for all three position switches, ABRIS brightness is too weak, HUD is also less readable as in 2.7, etc. 

Green or B&W Shkval I don't really care. The trigger delay when firing the ATGM is annoying, but I can adapt to it. I don't mind changes bringing things closer to reality, what bothers me is that it broke a bunch of other things that we'll have to wait a few weeks to fix, and I'm afraid that many of the bugs will be carried over to the stable version.

[rossmum]

2 hours ago, bingbean said:

There is no much other military helicopter games on the market. So not much other choose.

Judging by the rest of your post, this isn't directed at you, but at everyone who's complaining about the changed flight characteristics, or firing delay (which has long applied to many fixed wing modules in the game, and should probably apply to even more of them for many weapon types).

As for those people - if you can't cope with the helicopter being made to behave more like the real aircraft, I don't know why you're here. There are plenty of games where you can fly helicopters that magically disobey the laws of physics in favour of being easier to fly or more "capable". Personally I enjoy the quirks and individual character that's added when things are revised to behave more like real life, it's the entire appeal of DCS in the first place and what makes a particular module fun to learn and fly.

[Hobel]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb rossmum:

Judging by the rest of your post, this isn't directed at you, but at everyone who's complaining about the changed flight characteristics, or firing delay (which has long applied to many fixed wing modules in the game, and should probably apply to even more of them for many weapon types).

As for those people - if you can't cope with the helicopter being made to behave more like the real aircraft, I don't know why you're here. There are plenty of games where you can fly helicopters that magically disobey the laws of physics in favour of being easier to fly or more "capable". Personally I enjoy the quirks and individual character that's added when things are revised to behave more like real life, it's the entire appeal of DCS in the first place and what makes a particular module fun to learn and fly.

People are welcome to share their grief.

But just saying this and that seems to be broken is not very helpful.

Without being a video or a track of the situation, that usually helps more than 1000 words and then you can judge whether this observation is now correct or still needs adjustment.

 

I have now heard several complaints about the hdg or hover hold, but still no track or video of it..

[NightMan]

On 10/30/2022 at 8:35 AM, AR_Dailey said:

Extremely annoyed by what they just did to the bs2, and my excitement for the bs3 just plummeted. The interior textures literally look like they did something to make them worse. Perhaps its just the new lighting that is simply highlighting how bad they are, don't know. The shkval however is freaking horrific. No amount of adjustment is giving a usable image past 5km. I can only assume that this is simply the new shkval for the bs, including the bs3. Imagine just getting the game and only flying the 25t and deciding you want to get a paid high fidelity ka50 then you get in it and find that the shkval in your free plane was easily 10x better. Don't know if they are just making the bs2 crappier to push bs3 sales, which I doubt cause itd be silly for those of us who own the bs2 to not simply give the upgrade cost for the new model, or if this is simply a taste of whats coming with bs3. I just went from super excited and sharing info with friends about bs3 coming out to now thinking that I'm just going to try and get better with my apache and its embarrassing flight model cause I think it just became a more useful helicopter than the 50.

 

Has anyone noticed that BS2 and BS3 could in fact be Bull 5h1t 2 and 3?!

8 hours ago, Hobel said:

People are welcome to share their grief.

But just saying this and that seems to be broken is not very helpful.

Without being a video or a track of the situation, that usually helps more than 1000 words and then you can judge whether this observation is now correct or still needs adjustment.

 

I have now heard several complaints about the hdg or hover hold, but still no track or video of it..

Beta testers usually ask for a track, but if you replay a track you will see that it NEVER replays the same way it happened.

Edited November 3, 2022 by NightMan

[Hobel]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb NightMan:

Beta testers usually ask for a track, but if you replay a track you will see that it NEVER replays the same way it happened.

if you see a problem, the best way to reproduce it is to start a quick start mission, do what triggers the error, finish the mission and you will have a track that is 1-3 minutes long, which is a good track.

[Avimimus]

I'd honestly be really happy if low contrast conditions caused the failure of Shkval locking/automatic tracking - thus requiring manual correction in some light conditions.

I'm quite excited about the new gas ingestion feature - and I'd be extremely excited if the Shkval was less perfect (right now it can lock vehicles through trees, as well as in improbably lighting conditions)! Definitely a top priority feature in my mind, along with being able to carry less Vikhr per rack.

[River]

5 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I'd honestly be really happy if low contrast conditions caused the failure of Shkval locking/automatic tracking - thus requiring manual correction in some light conditions.

I'm quite excited about the new gas ingestion feature - and I'd be extremely excited if the Shkval was less perfect (right now it can lock vehicles through trees, as well as in improbably lighting conditions)! Definitely a top priority feature in my mind, along with being able to carry less Vikhr per rack.

May I ask why we need less Vikhrs per rack? It clearly has six per side like we do have in game. 

[expert2000]

Hey @Hobel I have so called "HDG HOLD - is not accurate as before. Heli breaks left or right but doesn't hold the correct heading (not ok)" reproduced.

1. Start "Convoy Hunt" Mission (in VR in my case)

2. Turn on flight director & take off (fly towards 1st WP)

3. Turn off FD & turn on Auto Route (Autopilot)

Effect: the heli`s heading on HUD is updated with 5-10s delay, which results in constant correction of heading via autopilot (automatic & constant turning to countereffect the delay of heading on HUD).  I think the proper (real) heading is displayed on ABRIS map - this is where we can see a difference between HUD.

Edited November 4, 2022 by expert2000

[thrustvector]

hmmm, i just got back in my fav copter from a long time ago, and honestly have no problem, in fact the opposite.

i find its more stable, very easy to hover, heading etc is just fine, but then i do trim a lot, like it the MI-8, this maybe the problem others have, not enough trim time?

i use hold trim, manoeuvre, release trim, try this maybe? 

[Hobel]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb expert2000:

Hey @Hobel I have so called "HDG HOLD - is not accurate as before. Heli breaks left or right but doesn't hold the correct heading (not ok)" reproduced.

1. Start "Convoy Hunt" Mission (in VR in my case)

2. Turn on flight director & take off (fly towards 1st WP)

3. Turn off FD & turn on Auto Route (Autopilot)

Effect: the heli`s heading on HUD is updated with 5-10s delay, which results in constant correction of heading via autopilot (automatic & constant turning to countereffect the delay of heading on HUD).  I think the proper (real) heading is displayed on ABRIS map - this is where we can see a difference between HUD.

 

what you describe I will test but for an alignment a trackfile is important.

[bingbean]

I just had the same problem with HDG hold.  Same mission "Convoy Hunt" a did play the mission 5 time in a row without issue. At the 6 attempt the HDG HOLD doesn't work correctly, heli fly side to side. I did save a track, but weird thing is after is run the track, the problem wasn't there. In the track replay the helicopter flew nice straight. So i don't know if have any sense post the track here. Next time i know i have to do a video.

[Avimimus]

17 hours ago, River said:

May I ask why we need less Vikhrs per rack? It clearly has six per side like we do have in game. 

 

Each of the launch tubes is attached separately - so it is possible to carry four or two missiles per rack (or even one)

Carrying only two missiles per rack saves 472kg (1040lb) of weight! This translates into greater agility and greater range. So it should be unsurprising that pilots not expecting many armoured targets - but still wanting a couple of anti-tank missiles in case they are needed - would fly with the racks largely empty.

Operationally we've generally seen Ka-52 carrying two or four missiles per rack, and we've also seen several photos of the Ka-50 with only two missiles per rack. There are a few photos of them flying with full racks - but it is rare.

The major exception is the Ka-52 which is often seen flying with a full rack - but carrying only one rack. This way it can carry a V-80 (S-8/80mm rocket pod) on the other side and two drop tanks (so 20xS-8 rockets and six 9K121 Vikhr and two drop tanks). However, the WCS on the Ka-50 (as modelled) doesn't permit asymmetric loadouts.

So the most realistic modelling of the Kamov would let us carry partially empty racks and/or asymmetric loadouts (with missiles and rockets on opposite sides). We now have plenty of photographic evidence to back this up.

P.S. The AH-64 Apache module by DCS models a similar capability - with options for one, two, three, or four hellfires per rack! Because American often fly with partially loaded racks too... it saves so much weight to do so.

[expert2000]

10 hours ago, Hobel said:

what you describe I will test but for an alignment a trackfile is important.

Strange, but problem is not reproducible when you replay recorded track. However I have 200mb video that does show the issue. Here is the video: https://we.tl/t-ZSf7Conxaj
I have HDG hold set, and turning on AUTO ROUTE. When heli becomes unstable check the top hud & the waypoint diamond. It changes its relative position when heli turns, it seems that autopilot wiggles, because it is following this waypoint diamong that has an error and is changing its position.

[River]

6 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Each of the launch tubes is attached separately - so it is possible to carry four or two missiles per rack (or even one)

Carrying only two missiles per rack saves 472kg (1040lb) of weight! This translates into greater agility and greater range. So it should be unsurprising that pilots not expecting many armoured targets - but still wanting a couple of anti-tank missiles in case they are needed - would fly with the racks largely empty.

Operationally we've generally seen Ka-52 carrying two or four missiles per rack, and we've also seen several photos of the Ka-50 with only two missiles per rack. There are a few photos of them flying with full racks - but it is rare.

The major exception is the Ka-52 which is often seen flying with a full rack - but carrying only one rack. This way it can carry a V-80 (S-8/80mm rocket pod) on the other side and two drop tanks (so 20xS-8 rockets and six 9K121 Vikhr and two drop tanks). However, the WCS on the Ka-50 (as modelled) doesn't permit asymmetric loadouts.

So the most realistic modelling of the Kamov would let us carry partially empty racks and/or asymmetric loadouts (with missiles and rockets on opposite sides). We now have plenty of photographic evidence to back this up.

P.S. The AH-64 Apache module by DCS models a similar capability - with options for one, two, three, or four hellfires per rack! Because American often fly with partially loaded racks too... it saves so much weight to do so.

A 100 % with you. I misunderstood your post. Option for less Vhikrs per rack needs to be implemented. 

[Schlomo1933]

Am 4.11.2022 um 16:33 schrieb expert2000:

Hey @Hobel I have so called "HDG HOLD - is not accurate as before. Heli breaks left or right but doesn't hold the correct heading (not ok)" reproduced.

1. Start "Convoy Hunt" Mission (in VR in my case)

2. Turn on flight director & take off (fly towards 1st WP)

3. Turn off FD & turn on Auto Route (Autopilot)

Effect: the heli`s heading on HUD is updated with 5-10s delay, which results in constant correction of heading via autopilot (automatic & constant turning to countereffect the delay of heading on HUD).  I think the proper (real) heading is displayed on ABRIS map - this is where we can see a difference between HUD.

 

With heading hold is all ok. What u see is a complete different thing. Since 2.8 u need to switch from magnetic heading to gyro compass. (Before 2.8 this switch had no function ) 

 

[honeycool75]

1 hour ago, Schlomo1933 said:

With heading hold is all ok. What u see is a complete different thing. Since 2.8 u need to switch from magnetic heading to gyro compass. (Before 2.8 this switch had no function ) 

 

Can I ask where is the switch for changing the magnetic to gyro compass?

Thanks.

[Volk.]

On the right - big red & white of the ejection toggles, to the right of that is weapons power, then the anti-collision beacon, then the 'gyro switch'. In the English cockpit it's labelled MH & MAN. You want to from the top position, down into the middle position. If you take it all the way down to manual, then rather flip it all the way up again before taking it to the middle.

[WarbossPetross]

Does the hover hold mode work for everyone? Because for me it didn't in the Caucasus take-off mission. No matter how I trimmed or pressed LAlt+T, it refused to engage. The route autopilot mode worked as usual though.

[River]

2 hours ago, WarbossPetross said:

Does the hover hold mode work for everyone? Because for me it didn't in the Caucasus take-off mission. No matter how I trimmed or pressed LAlt+T, it refused to engage. The route autopilot mode worked as usual though.

Did you turn Flight Director mode off? Think FD fights auto hover mode.. 

Just flew a MP server on Caucasus, auto hover was rock solid. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by River

[NightMan]

[NightMan]

It is at least amusing to watch the track.

The chopper flies in circles and the heading tape on the HUD does funny things!

Ka-50 - Auto-pilot in Route Mode, Heading data selector in Manual Heading.trk

[bingbean]

R E C A P I T U L A T I O N:

1. Green skval TV

ED statement : IRL features

My opinion: Don't care too much, but i don't found any footages where the shkval TV have green image. There is lots of photos of turn off shkval where it looks green, but that is common features of old B&W TV , that they are look green while they are turn off, however the turn on image is B&W.

2. up to 2 second ATGM trigger delay 

ED statement : Added delay up to 2 seconds for ATGM Vikhr launch sequence by original flight manual notes.

My opinion: I don't know where those notes came from after 13 years of Ka-50 development in DCS and how relevant they are. Personally, it doesn't make much sense for me to have such a long delay. I'm slowly getting used to it.

3. ABRIS map refresh rate 1 per second so the zoomed map moves jerkily.

ED statement : IRL features , but it broke the speed indicator what is actually harder to fix at it looks like.

My opinion: Do we really need such as "improvement". So should I expect that after 2, 4 or 10 years someone in ED will think that automatic map switching in the Mi-24P is not realistic and so they will "improve" it by removing this feature?

4. Almost all the time shake

ED statement : none

Some additional info:

 

My opinion: I have no problem driving kart , but looking on helmet go-pro kart video make me sick. Flying Ka-50 make me sick now same way.  It's different to sit in something that shakes and shake with it than to just look at something that shakes. So i am pray for camera cockpit shake set up slider for Ka-50 in special options.

5. HDG HOLD - is not accurate as before. Heli breaks left or right but doesn't hold the correct heading

ED statement :  I do not find none yet

Community research: 

 

My opinion: Magnetic heading mode is WIP and dont works as is intended. I am really interesting for ED statements.

6. Shkval performance degraded and some new cockpit textures looks blurry.

ED statement : (Beta tester) New DCS lighting and new Ka-50 cockpit doesn't work corect together.  Workaround for now : turn off the "Cockpit Global Illumination", this makes the difference in the skhval.

My opinion: I have no idea what the option "Cockpit Global Illumination" do. Some modules looks little bit better when it is turn on (F-15 for example), some looks  same for me (MI-24P) no matter if it is on or off.  Significant difference is only in Ka-50.

7. KH-25ml Misslle Not Tracking the laser

ED statement : this is correct as is. See manual page 94:

My opinion: I prefer vikhr, but good to know.

 

My overall opinion:  it looks like a nice downgrade.

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by bingbean
I fix the point 4.

[Raptor9]

12 minutes ago, bingbean said:

4. Almost all the time shake

ED statement :  Technically, the low-speed shudder isn't caused by ETL (Effective Translational Lift), it's caused by TFE (Transverse Flow Effect). It is a common misconception, reinforced by the phrase "ETL shudder" that is often used when discussing the phenomenon. Not going to go into either of these effects (ETL, TFE) since they can just as easily be googled to read all about them in detail, but the shudder itself is caused by a difference in induced drag between the front and rear portions of the rotor disc. What causes many people to confuse the source of the shudder is because the airspeed regions at which each aerodynamic effect occurs overlap with each other, which is what reinforces the misconception that the shudder is being caused by ETL (since it occurs at the same time), but is actually a result of TFE.

The shudder occurs at a much higher airspeed in the DCS Ka-50 than what would happen in say a UH-1 or AH-64 for instance (by the time a UH-1 or AH-64 reach 50 kmh they are already well through TFE), but that may be due to the fact that the Ka-50 is a coaxial rotor system and the upper rotor system is causing induced drag on the aft portion of the lower rotor system, causing the lower rotor system to experience TFE for an extended period during an acceleration.  I'm not an expert on coaxial rotor systems, just making an estimated guess.

Just to be clear, that was not an official "ED statement" as too whether or not the effect is correct or not. That was me (as someone with real-world helicopter experience), responding to Volk's comment in clarifying that Transverse Flow Effect, rather than Effective Translational Lift, is the aerodynamic effect that generates a shudder effect in rotorcraft at lower airspeeds.

I am not on the Black Shark dev team, or any dev team actually, nor have I ever flown a real Ka-50. I was simply provided aerodynamic context, so please don't misconstrue or use my comments as official statements regarding the DCS Black Shark.