Night OPS question - PNVS and/or NVG

[sirrah]

Sorry if this was asked before somewhere. Perhaps @Raptor9 can answer this?

 

I was wondering; During Apache night ops in real life, are there specific situations where the pilot (always) switches from PNVS to NVG? 

For instance, personally, I find landing at night a lot easier with NVG rather than PNVS, due to the lack of depth perception with PNVS. Do Apache pilots in real life also switch to NVG for landing/take-off, or is NVG not really used at all maybe?

 

If real life pilots don't use NVG for landing, I want to stop using it too and try to learn how to decently land using PNVS. (it feels that with NVG I'm kinda cheating , hence my question)

[Swift.]

NVG and PNVS should have the same kind of depth perception issues afaik. They are both monocular.

Its probably unit SOP, but consider having the pilot in NVS and the CPG on NVG. It helps having the crew split across devices so that if a situation presents that degrades the vision of one (ie cultural lighting changes) the other will still be able to see.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Swift.

[Floyd1212]

I would think the ability for the PNVS to allow the pilot to "see through the cockpit" would be an advantage during landing over the NVG.

[sirrah]

18 minutes ago, Swift. said:

NVG and PNVS should have the same kind of depth perception issues afaik. They are both monocular.

Please forgive my ignorance and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the NVG binocular? (and hence doesn't it allow for depth perception?)

null

 

I mean, flying VR, I know I can see depth when using NVG's. While when I use PNVS (right eye only as irl), I only see an image in my right eye and my left eye (assuming a dark night) sees nothing outside the cockpit.

So is it not correct/accurate that I can see depth with NVG's in DCS?

[Raptor9]

3 hours ago, sirrah said:

I was wondering; During Apache night ops in real life, are there specific situations where the pilot (always) switches from PNVS to NVG? 

For instance, personally, I find landing at night a lot easier with NVG rather than PNVS, due to the lack of depth perception with PNVS. Do Apache pilots in real life also switch to NVG for landing/take-off, or is NVG not really used at all maybe?

The most important reason to carry NVG's at night is in case the PNVS (or TADS) fails or is shot off. This way the NVG's are used to recover the aircraft back to the home base or FARP.

Another reason (as Swift suggested) is to cover more portions of the spectrum, specifically to see IR pointers and strobes, but that is more for the CPG since the CPG is the one coordinating with ground forces, and is more of a COIN type thing. When you aren't working in close proximty to ground forces, I personally dislike NVGs because 1) it's not integrated into the other sensors and weapons, 2) it can't zoom in like the TADS, 3) it is subject to illumination limitations like light pollution and moonless/overcast nights, and 4) it forces me to drive up my cockpit display brightness.

With PNVS or TADS over only one eye, I can eventually get my cockpit so dark that my left eye is extremely night adapted while my right is not. It can be a distraction for the pilot when the CPG has the front cockpit turned up too high.

And as @Floyd1212suggested, it helps to have an unobstructed view through the cockpit with PNVS when flying in the trees.

1 hour ago, Swift. said:

NVG and PNVS should have the same kind of depth perception issues afaik. They are both monocular.

The NVGs provide binocular vision, so they have an advantage of better depth perception. But the difference in depth perception is only really significant at close range anyway, like during low altitudes near terrain.

But even so, there are things called monocular cues that aid in depth perception, you just learn to apply them a lot more with NVS versus NVGs.

Overall, the advantages of NVS outweigh those of NVGs in my opinion, but like so many other things, you use the appropriate tool for the situation. The trick is to learn what the pros and cons are to each tool so you can identify which tool is needed at any given time.

[sirrah]

Ok, thanks for the clarifications guys! 

I always wondered about this but never got around to actually ask here. I'm going to train myself from now on to do "everything" with PNVS 

(good tip btw about darkening the cockpit instruments/mfd's as much as possible, maybe that'll help me a bit with seeing better outside when close to the ground)

 

 

Edit:

Just tried some night time take-off and landing using only PNVS. Darn, that's really difficult. It's like I'm reliving the troubles I had trying to fly the Huey a decade ago on a 2D monitor. I got so used to VR depth perception that I completely seem to have to relearn landing and taking off using just one eye. Turning down all cockpit lighting to a minimum though, certainly does help me automatically focus more on my PNVS eye.

Funny thing is, I seem to have more difficulties trying to smoothly take-off, than landing. Maybe that's because as soon as the wheels get off the ground, you start moving and have to counter steer that movement. While when landing, I already have the controls pretty steady around their "sweet spot".

Anyways.. I need a lot more practice  (but a smooth PNVS landing sure is a rewarding feel)

Edited November 8, 2022 by sirrah

[corbu1]

Thank you for this interesting topic and informations given!

On night missions I always use PNVS in DCS. And yes it‘s a real challenging experience and it takes some time to deal with it.

What distracts me most is not the cockpit lighting as I always dime them low as possible. It‘s mostly ligthing from outside the cockpit like the lots of streetlamps in urban areas in DCS. This makes it often difficult for me concentrating on the PNVS image in VR.

I wonder if this is also a problem IRL or it‘s more a VR „thing“ in DCS?

[sirrah]

2 minutes ago, corbu1 said:

Thank you for this interesting topic and informations given!

On night missions I always use PNVS in DCS. And yes it‘s a real challenging experience and it takes some time to deal with it.

What distracts me most is not the cockpit lighting as I always dime them low as possible. It‘s mostly ligthing from outside the cockpit like the lots of streetlamps in urban areas in DCS. This makes it often difficult for me concentrating on the PNVS image in VR.

I wonder if this is also a problem IRL or it‘s more a VR „thing“ in DCS?

Yes, I wonder about this too.

I usually have to (briefly) close my left eye, to allow my vision to focus on my right (PNVS) eye.

[corbu1]

vor 1 Minute schrieb sirrah:

Yes, I wonder about this too.

I usually have to (briefly) close my left eye, to allow my vision to focus on my right (PNVS) eye.

Yes, I do so, too.

It‘s most distracting when just looking in direction of an outside lightsource. These lights are so strong and shine through the PNVS image that the PNVS image vanihes at this point.

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, corbu1 said:

It‘s mostly ligthing from outside the cockpit like the lots of streetlamps in urban areas in DCS. This makes it often difficult for me concentrating on the PNVS image in VR.

I wonder if this is also a problem IRL or it‘s more a VR „thing“ in DCS?

Yes it is, and it's called binocular rivalry. In those cases, sometimes you just gotta close the left eye for a few moments like you and @sirrah stated.

[sirrah]

1 minute ago, kgillers3 said:

It’s real fun if you’re left eye dominant 

I can imagine  (are you? or would that maybe be a reason for not being selected/allowed to fly?)

I wouldn't know if I am, nor how to test myself 

[corbu1]

Thanks @Raptor9and @kgillers3!
 

[TZeer]

@corbu1

Try using the TADS as your source instead of the PNVS. Specially if you fly VR.

There is currently an issue with the PNVS. You get picture and everything, but it "jumps"/"stutters" very bad when looking around. Put alot of strain on your eyes. Changing source to TADS will give you much smoother visual. Although the CPG will loose his ability to use the TADS for scanning and finding targets while you are using it.

Also if you move you head quickly, it might not keep up, as it slews slower than the PNVS.

Edited November 8, 2022 by TZeer

[corbu1]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb TZeer:

@corbu1

Try using the TADS as your source instead of the PNVS. Specially if you fly VR.

There is currently an issue with the PNVS. You get picture and everything, but it "jumps"/"stutters" very bad when looking around. Put alot of strain on your eyes. Changing source to TADS will give you much smoother visual. Although the CPG will loose his ability to use the TADS for scanning and finding targets while you are using it.

Also if you move you head quickly, it might not keep up, as it slews slower than the PNVS.

 

Thanks, I‘ll try this.

[bradmick]

On 11/8/2022 at 1:14 PM, sirrah said:

I can imagine  (are you? or would that maybe be a reason for not being selected/allowed to fly?)

I wouldn't know if I am, nor how to test myself 

With both eyes open, look at a corner in your room, preferably a corner near the checking where two walls meet. Point at this corner with your right index finger, try to line it up so that your finger is perfectly centered on the corner. Close your left eye, if your finger is perfectly centered in the corner, you’re right eye dominant. If it’s not, close your right eye and open your left eye. Check that your finger is centered, if it is, you’re left eye dominant.

 

Also, eye dominance is a thing, but it takes zero time for your brain to adapt. It doesn’t cause issues like in Firebirds. Folks do love to use it as an excuse though.

[admiki]

1 hour ago, bradmick said:

With both eyes open, look at a corner in your room, preferably a corner near the checking where two walls meet. Point at this corner with your right index finger, try to line it up so that your finger is perfectly centered on the corner. Close your left eye, if your finger is perfectly centered in the corner, you’re right eye dominant. If it’s not, close your right eye and open your left eye. Check that your finger is centered, if it is, you’re left eye dominant.

 

Also, eye dominance is a thing, but it takes zero time for your brain to adapt. It doesn’t cause issues like in Firebirds. Folks do love to use it as an excuse though.

Great tip, I found out I am right eye dominant.

Still, need to close my left eye if I am looking at brightly lit town to get brain to focus on NVS

[bradmick]

13 minutes ago, admiki said:

Great tip, I found out I am right eye dominant.

Still, need to close my left eye if I am looking at brightly lit town to get brain to focus on NVS

There's a reason for this:

Retinal Rivalry. Your brain is hardwired to focus on bright lights. It's not an eye dominance issue, it's just the way your brain works. Over time you learn to overcome this...to a point. On long flights, as you get more fatigued, it gets harder to keep your brain from shifting focus to the bright lights in your unaided eye vs. the HDU. What folks will typically do then is overdrive the brightness in the HDU, the issue there is that it will over time damage your eye. In my early years, I did exactly that. My right eye has suffered as a result.