Developer updates MSFS style?

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Also, this is rich coming from someone who tried to use some imaginary company with infinite resources as a counter-argument not that many posts back.

I did say “almost unlimited”. That’s a fair assessment for someone who can model the whole earth and everything on it.

[Tippis]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s a fair assessment for someone who can model the whole earth and everything on it.

You're confusing who does what again. So no, that's not a fair assessment by any stretch of the imagination.

And that's saying something, given how far your imagination has proven it can stretch.

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, Tippis said:

You're confusing who does what again. So no, that's not a fair assessment by any stretch of the imagination.

Their level of finite resources is a lot higher than ED’s level of finite resources. That’s for sure. 

[Tippis]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Their level of finite resources is a lot higher than ED’s level of finite resources. That’s for sure. 

Again, 250 people, and split over multiple games. So not a lot, no.

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Again, 250 people, and split over multiple games. So not a lot, no.

Look at the sheer volume of content in that other game and then look at this one. That other game probably sells 10,000x the number of copies.

And it’s a moot point because if ED is unwilling or unable to provide this level communication here, what chance do you figure there is they’ll make elaborate videos about it?

[Tippis]

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Look at the sheer volume of content in that other game and then look at this one.

Yes, ED's reluctance to improve the content generation side of the equation has long been a problem.

You've been arguing very adamantly against any such improvements though, so you really only have yourself to blame.

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That other game probably sells 10,000x the number of copies.

[citation needed] [twice over]

Look, I know that doing research and using facts rather than just pulling some random nonsense out of your lower backside makes you break out in hives and asthma attacks, but come on man, at least try to make it seem like your fantasies have a chance of existing in this particular reality.

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And it’s a moot point because if ED is unwilling or unable to provide this level communication here

Congratulations. You just joined the OP's side. The whole point is that ED should stop being unwilling — they've never been unable — because that will greatly benefit everyone involved and solve a ton of the issues they're having. It would be a very cheap and effective effort to forestall a large number of the bad habits you're describing.

They already make elaborate videos. They're just not nearly as good a use of their time.

[SkateZilla]

On 11/15/2022 at 6:21 AM, Solemn-laugh said:

A suggestion for @NineLine (given how often you have to field comments about the age/state of the code in DCS (particularly for us VR diehards)).

How about persuading ED to give us a look over their shoulder wrt the performance-enhancing work (and more) that's going on in the background?

A video / series of videos perhaps, with insight into where ED are with, say, the multithreading beta? Why we're looking at multi-threading first, before python, etc. I'm sure a lot of us would find this fascinating and reassuring – particularly if presented by (or from the POV of) the developers.

I love DCS with a passion (that word again ) but am nervous that my 22 fps with my high-end PC (well, overclocked 3090) won't improve (and that's with shadows off) and that VR is falling a bit by the wayside (see clouds for details).

I'm saying this as a big DCS fan. I have enormous respect for all that DCS have achieved and I understand the challenges are not trivial. But a feeling of being closer to it all will (imho) go a long way to placating the user base  – just as it does with MSFS.

That said, thanks for all you're doing on the forum and elsewhere.

 

1. You can't showcase WIP Code until it's finished, otherwise any showcased performance increases are null/void because any other code/fix can negate the increases.

2. Wags posts videos all the time to his channel showcasing items being worked on for various modules and the core.

3. if you're getting 22 FPS with a 3090, then the problem isn't shadows

On 11/25/2022 at 7:45 AM, St4rgun said:

Let me reply quick: N O P E.

They don't care about anyone trying to get information about actual development status. We tried to ask for it in the last year in polite and even funny styles.

Nothing changed since then. The only answer is "we currently have no new information to share, thanks."

To have MSFS-style development plan for the upcoming months with strict timeframes.... In your dreams maybe.

The whole multicore / Vulkan development was PLANNED to be released by Q3 2021(!) originally, at least according to their published plan at January 2021. Then the date passed and the community just got a "Multicore development report" which is still unprecendented since then.

More than one whole year passed since the last somehow detailed report it total radio silence.

What we know right now for sure:

1. The multicore development will forego the Vulkan implementation, but no info about how much.
2. The multicore is in closed beta testing status currently, but no info about the estimated length of that phase.

The community managers seems to be tired of asking them about this whole topic again and again so I personally won't count on any answer from them.

I'm pretty sure tho, that as long as there'll be real new info, they'll share. Maybe in weeks. Or months. Or years. Maybe never, we don't know.

 

If you knew what it takes to take serialized single threaded code, and make it operate in parallel multi-threaded environment, then you wouldn't be criticizing the delay, nor the length of said closed testing phase.


As stated above, 

ED would not publish any performance numbers until they know for sure,

Performance numbers during testing can be mis-leading and false, as one code change to fix a bug can take away any said performance increase.

you cant exactly make a YT Video showing off the code length.

Please be patient, more will come on MT from ED when it's closer to release.

However, You should not expect MT to be an automatic Low FPS Vaccine, if the CPU and DCS Thread isn't the bottleneck.

Edited November 30, 2022 by SkateZilla

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, Tippis said:

[citation needed] [twice over]

Look at the sheer volume of the marketplace content in that game and how quickly that all arrives. There’s no point in comparing games here, this a tiny niche sim. DCS seems to do ok, the only survey I’ve seen lists it as 3rd (a distant 3rd). This is the survey by Navigraph that focuses on civy flight sims but those have a lot of players. Being third there is doing pretty well. 

[Tippis]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Look at the sheer volume of the marketplace content in that game and how quickly that all arrives.

So nothing to support that silly notion then, I take it?

Unsurprising.

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s no point in comparing games here.

Good thing that no-one is, then.

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

DCS seems to do ok

One thing that could make it do even better was if ED became a more communicative and information-happy company that engaged with the community and kept up a good stream of information about how things are going, what with, and why. It's pretty basic and well-known stuff, really.

It's kind of funny how you always default back to this supposed “not worth their time” argument (with absolutely nothing to back it up) and then immediately, inevitably, pivot to a position where they should waste as much of their time as possible rather than actually be efficient with their resources. Every time, without fail, you are adamant that ED must at all cost remain inefficient, small, niche, and not improve their processes in any way. Nothing must ever become better in your contrarian world, for no conceivable or articulated reason other than… well… because it's contrary to what someone else has suggested.

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Tippis said:

So nothing to support that silly notion then, I take it?

Somebody is buying all that content. So…

7 minutes ago, Tippis said:

One thing that could make it do even better was if ED became a more communicative and information-happy company

They do communicate. Plenty. They just can’t give out specifics that they’re going to be held to and then lambasted over by the fanatics here if it all doesn’t go exactly as they said. 

[Tippis]

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Somebody is buying all that content. So…

…so that still doesn't say anything about your silly claim. So still [citation needed], twice over.

I understand that you don't actually want to try to defend it or prove it any way, since even the most basic napkin maths proves you wrong instantly. But still, again, at least try to make it seem like your attempts at an argument hold any kind of water.

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

They do communicate. Plenty.

Not really, no. That's one of the main reasons why they're being lambasted.

[SharpeXB]

41 minutes ago, Tippis said:

so that still doesn't say anything about your silly claim.

Ok so 10,000x is a whimsical exaggeration… I’d seriously guess it’s on the order of 100x at least. 

43 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Not really, no. That's one of the main reasons why they're being lambasted.

Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

[SkateZilla]

Guys, you're getting off topic, suggest a woosah

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

Not really no. By the very nature of things, it's only the “don't” part that leads there.

Really, the only reason not to do proper, systematic, and regular communication and information efforts that there's no culture for it, and that's a culture that almost universally needs to be remedied because nothing good ever comes out of it.

[NineLine]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:21 AM, Solemn-laugh said:

A suggestion for @NineLine (given how often you have to field comments about the age/state of the code in DCS (particularly for us VR diehards)).

How about persuading ED to give us a look over their shoulder wrt the performance-enhancing work (and more) that's going on in the background?

A video / series of videos perhaps, with insight into where ED are with, say, the multithreading beta? Why we're looking at multi-threading first, before python, etc. I'm sure a lot of us would find this fascinating and reassuring – particularly if presented by (or from the POV of) the developers.

I love DCS with a passion (that word again ) but am nervous that my 22 fps with my high-end PC (well, overclocked 3090) won't improve (and that's with shadows off) and that VR is falling a bit by the wayside (see clouds for details).

I'm saying this as a big DCS fan. I have enormous respect for all that DCS have achieved and I understand the challenges are not trivial. But a feeling of being closer to it all will (imho) go a long way to placating the user base  – just as it does with MSFS.

That said, thanks for all you're doing on the forum and elsewhere.

 

We have been talking about expanding and growing what we do with updates and how we share them. Its always a debate between community people like myself and devs as they do not want to show mistakes or bugs or issues with additions, if I had my way I would have shown what the 109 looked like today in the Multithreading build, it was hilarious and ok to laugh at ourselves from time to time. 

I know we will share some news on Mutlithreading very soon, and I think you guys will appreciate it. You also have to understand the is a big group of people that do not appreciate these types of updates or take them the wrong way etc. So its always a balancing act of what we share and what we dont. 

I can tell you that early performance showed good results, but more so on heavy missions, meaning while there is improvements across the board, the more stuff you added to a mission the bigger the performance difference, which isnt too surprising, but these were from earlier build and its always evolving and changing.  And that is another thing, early development peaks can make people nervous, they might not see the performance gains the want but forget there is work to be done, so again... its a balancing act. 

We really do appreciate all you guys, from our biggest fans to our biggest critics, we are working really hard on making a very big positive change and setting the stage for a very bright future going forward. 

Just make sure you are subbed for the newsletter. 

[Tippis]

Thank you for the update on the discussion on the updates (on the… etc ).

In particular…

26 minutes ago, NineLine said:

We have been talking about expanding and growing what we do with updates and how we share them. Its always a debate between community people like myself and devs as they do not want to show mistakes or bugs or issues with additions, if I had my way I would have shown what the 109 looked like today in the Multithreading build, it was hilarious and ok to laugh at ourselves from time to time. 

…that is absolutely the right approach. Few things bind two parties together like actually showing off the silliness that sometimes happen, thereby building an understanding of the process and why (and how) the end result ends up the way it does. It certainly takes a bit of… idk… bravery, for the lack of a better term, but it pretty much universally pays off in the end. Blooper reals exist for a reason, and they are delivered on the “collector's edition” releases of [whatever] specifically because it's the more in-depth fans that want them and enjoy them. Those who don't most likely won't even seek them out to begin with.

 

26 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I know we will share some news on Mutlithreading very soon, and I think you guys will appreciate it. You also have to understand the is a big group of people that do not appreciate these types of updates or take them the wrong way etc. So its always a balancing act of what we share and what we dont. 

That's what the “oh shush” button is for.

I'm wondering, though, and I somewhat suspect that this answer would be kept more under wraps than many others, but more towards the licensing end of the business, is there a problem with the manufacturers that you and the third-party devs rely on to get the info on planes in regards to this? There are a fair few stories out there about how sim companies can't show (or even implement) crashes because the companies don't want any kind of footage where their car/plane/trivection oven falls to pieces because the game physics decided to have a wobble that day.

[Solemn-laugh]

First, thank you @NineLine if you had anything to do with the recent multithreading news item. For me, this is the kind of thing I wanted, just reassurance that things are moving forward, and some info about the process because I'm not a dev/coder (although I do work with them but not in games) so find it interesting and it helps me understand timeframes etc.

Second @SkateZilla thanks for your great utility.

 

[rob10]

On 11/30/2022 at 6:27 PM, SharpeXB said:

Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

On 11/30/2022 at 7:36 PM, Tippis said:

Not really no. By the very nature of things, it's only the “don't” part that leads there.

 

I would say a Discord post like this suggests that Sharpe is on the right track....

[Tippis]

6 hours ago, rob10 said:

I would say a Discord post like this suggests that Sharpe is on the right track....

Nah. It shows exactly why his tactic doesn't work: because it reduces everything to hype rather than actual communication and updates on development.

Hype doesn't work. Communication does. The two are not the same, and ED is only “damned” if they stick to the former rather than the latter.

[draconus]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:53 PM, Tippis said:

Nah. It shows exactly why his tactic doesn't work: because it reduces everything to hype rather than actual communication and updates on development.

Hype doesn't work. Communication does. The two are not the same, and ED is only “damned” if they stick to the former rather than the latter.

Right... so now it's not news, it's just hype? And another one for you:

[Solemn-laugh]

On 12/1/2022 at 1:04 AM, NineLine said:

we will share some news on Mutlithreading very soon

Thanks for that @NineLine