RTX 4080 & 7900 XTX/XT benchmarks DCS

[Thinder]

15 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

I am corious to know if the issues that caused the 5xxx and 6xxx AMD cards to not work properly with Motion Reprojection algorithms are sorted now.

Mbucchia made a great explanation on why those were never going to be good with 5th or 6th generation AMD cards, and that were some sort of issues with the encoders.

I hope AMD solved those with 7th gen cards. @Thindercan you tell us something in that regard?

Last year I bought a 6900xt and made extensive tests, found that only with a specific driver from may 2021  MR was working in decent way. I also made many reports on AMD forums...decided to send the card back as I saw no improvements. Later I managed to get hands on a 3090 at honest price...but I always keep an eye on AMD solutions.

 

Unfortunately I can't tell you anything about it, if there is a subject flying way over my head it's drivers, I haven't studied it in any form or depth.

I only can hope that AMD will get their singer out and sort those drivers issues asap, they are already in the red with their customers and losing market share, I don't think this eludes them.

For this sort of info, the best echo chamber is the AMD forum people don't hesitate to post their grievances there because it looks like it is  where AMD support get their info from unless I get it wrong it's the worst I've seen of all companies I had to contact for support and it looks like the driver issues are not only affecting my GPU generation...

The worst about it is that they removed the drivers that were working well and it doesn't seem like we can get them from anywhere, I don't care about the fancy stuff they added, it made my card lightning fast with excellent visual clarity and it is what I expect from a driver .

I had an EVGA GEFORCE 1080Ti previous to this one and was delighted with its performances, especially because I procured it second hand from CEX and it served me two for years without a glitch, if it had been sufficient to run DCS at 4K, I would probably still have it.

Having said that, I'm happy I get this GPU, it's damned fast as I know from my tests, it's only a matter of drivers and has little to do with the card...

[VirusAM]

32 minutes ago, Thinder said:

Unfortunately I can't tell you anything about it, if there is a subject flying way over my head it's drivers, I haven't studied it in any form or depth.

I only can hope that AMD will get their singer out and sort those drivers issues asap, they are already in the red with their customers and losing market share, I don't think this eludes them.

For this sort of info, the best echo chamber is the AMD forum people don't hesitate to post their grievances there because it looks like it is  where AMD support get their info from unless I get it wrong it's the worst I've seen of all companies I had to contact for support and it looks like the driver issues are not only affecting my GPU generation...

The worst about it is that they removed the drivers that were working well and it doesn't seem like we can get them from anywhere, I don't care about the fancy stuff they added, it made my card lightning fast with excellent visual clarity and it is what I expect from a driver .

I had an EVGA GEFORCE 1080Ti previous to this one and was delighted with its performances, especially because I procured it second hand from CEX and it served me two for years without a glitch, if it had been sufficient to run DCS at 4K, I would probably still have it.

Having said that, I'm happy I get this GPU, it's damned fast as I know from my tests, it's only a matter of drivers and has little to do with the card...

Yeah I understand you...

But since you are using one of the new cards in VR, and given that DCS (or other Sims) are very intensive also on the best possible hardware, and it is impossible to run always at 90fps (or whichever refresh rate your headset is running), you should easily understand if Reprojection is working or not...

So is it working with your 7900xtx or not?

Just to add to my post above here is some reference for what I am referring to in the AMD forums (on reddit many more threads can be found, and also on this very forum):

 

This is my post (which didn't receive any reply)

https://community.amd.com/t5/drivers-software/vr-motion-smoothing-not-working-with-recent-drivers/td-p/538031

 

This one is similar to mine

https://community.amd.com/t5/drivers-software/amd-drivers-and-vr/m-p/538001#M159193

Edited March 2, 2023 by VirusAM

[SkateZilla]

The PCI_E2 Slot should have the same bandwidth as the PCI_E1 Slot. (Unless your Manual specificly states its x8, x4, x2 etc), but most Gaming Boards tend to have both Full Slots at x16.

 

As for Setting up in VR.

99% of the Players get so focused on the FPS Number, and honestly that's the fatal flaw with everyone in VR.

While the FPS is key in determining whether or not there's going to be a sync pull down.

They should be adjusting settings and doing test runs based on gameplay smoothness.

Honestly, I'd say Ignore FPS, as it can be mis-leading, especially when the Sync Pulldown is applied.

[Thinder]

50 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

Yeah I understand you...

But since you are using one of the new cards in VR, and given that DCS (or other Sims) are very intensive also on the best possible hardware, and it is impossible to run always at 90fps (or whichever refresh rate your headset is running), you should easily understand if Reprojection is working or not...

So is it working with your 7900xtx or not?

 

I have no clue.

First I'm never focused on FPS but image quality and playability, if 40 FPS looks good then I'll get the best image quality at this speed, I'd say in my best tests, the FPS must have been in the neighbouring of 55/60FPS, the fact that I pushed the card to those high settings is much more for testing its capabilities than anything else, then I lowered those settings to get the best image quality.

You can see that in my last video (Mirage F1EE, Nellis AFB), where the side view of close objects (threes, buildings etc) is smooth and the sharpness enough for me to see the electric lines, that's how I operate, flying low has this advantage, you can see how your GPU performs with details in a way altitude makes impossible.

Then to me, DCS doesn't need to be played at 80/90FPS, it's not like a footie or shooter game where the smallest timing matters, you even can have twice the lag and ping times, it won't matter much for as long as the game is responsive and looks good.

I can't find Asynchronous Reprojection in my range of Pico or Adrenalin settings, and didn't bother with that, my Pico is set for Ultra Display Mode, 150 Mbps, 90 Hz and the rest is done entirely by the GPU including game settings override.

I see that you fell for the same assumption than I did thinking that the latest driver would bring more performances...

 

  

21 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

The PCI_E2 Slot should have the same bandwidth as the PCI_E1 Slot. (Unless your Manual specificly states its x8, x4, x2 etc), but most Gaming Boards tend to have both Full Slots at x16.

It doesn't on the Ace Max, it's 4X8 instead of 4X16, and to be honest, this mobo is probably the worst of the stuff I procured for my upgrade, accessibility is mediocre, you have to dismount M2 SSDs to access the battery, the GPU can't be installed on PCI_E2 with the USB2 connector cable under it.

Then there is the little matter of how fragile the BIOS is, my problem with PCI_E1 was coming from a BIOS setting (Gen1 to Gen3) which would turn itself back to auto at the first opportunity, forcing me to remount the card back to PCI_E2 and reset the PCI_E1 to Gen1 in BIOS because I had no signal...

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Thinder

[VirusAM]

28 minutes ago, Thinder said:

 

I have no clue.

First I'm never focused on FPS but image quality and playability, if 40 FPS looks good then I'll get the best image quality at this speed, I'd say in my best tests, the FPS must have been in the neighbouring of 55/60FPS, the fact that I pushed the card to those high settings is much more for testing its capabilities than anything else, then I lowered those settings to get the best image quality.

You can see that in my last video (Mirage F1EE, Nellis AFB), where the side view of close objects (threes, buildings etc) is smooth and the sharpness enough for me to see the electric lines, that's how I operate, flying low has this advantage, you can see how your GPU performs with details in a way altitude makes impossible.

Then to me, DCS doesn't need to be played at 80/90FPS, it's not like a footie or shooter game where the smallest timing matters, you even can have twice the lag and ping times, it won't matter much for as long as the game is responsive and looks good.

I can't find Asynchronous Reprojection in my range of Pico or Adrenalin settings, and didn't bother with that, my Pico is set for Ultra Display Mode, 150 Mbps, 90 Hz and the rest is done entirely by the GPU including game settings override.

I see that you fell for the same assumption than I did thinking that the latest driver would bring more performances...

 

 

 

If that is true you are lucky, I cannot use VR without MR, anything below 90hz (real or perceived with the help of motion reprojection) is an unpleasent experience for me...I ditched VR for two years for this reason.

Now it is better also if not perfect...

[Thinder]

20 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

If that is true you are lucky, I cannot use VR without MR, anything below 90hz (real or perceived with the help of motion reprojection) is an unpleasent experience for me...I ditched VR for two years for this reason.

Now it is better also if not perfect...

Well it is the way I obtained the results you can see in my videos, before the DCS update that is, because after that the loss of quality and performances was so bad I couldn't even see the three line in the middle of the HUD and the image on the side was jerky as hell.

It's better now but not as good as it used to be in January when I started testing the GPU and uploading videos on Youtube, after that like most Pico users I tried the solutions on offer in the forum but none worked satisfyingly, for the simple reason that adding layers of app only make things worse, it had to be sorted by DCS developers.

You have to understand, I only use Pico Streaming Assistant and when the headset is linked to the PC (USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 20Gbps), Steam VR kicks-in automatically, then I use Virtual Desktop to start DCS or I start Elite Dangerous directly from the VR Room without it, no need for two extra layers of apps.

So I decided to seat it out and played Elite Dangerous Horizon a little more only to figure that the AMD drivers were causing the moons where we need to land to have access to engineers to distort like cracked nuts, I even had to fly through the moon surface to land on one station, then I was lucky because most of them are impossible to reach...

So between DCS update and AMD drivers, I've been hit rather hard I think, a good thing that I managed to test my GPU before hell broke loose, at least I know what it can do...

Edited March 2, 2023 by Thinder

[Rifter]

1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

99% of the Players get so focused on the FPS Number, and honestly that's the fatal flaw with everyone in VR.

Sorry SkateZilla, no offense, but you just triggered me.

In VR I do my adjustments based on the occurrence of motion sickness and immersion breaking frame rate drops.
At some point I realized that an insignificant minority of VR users on the edge of the bell curve seem to be robust enough to go without reprojection and are fine with frame rates below 90fps because they feel they still have enough ‘gameplay smoothness’.
For the vast majority those user reports about having a satisfying VR experience without having 90 fps (or on my account 80 in case of a Rift S) are unfortunately useless and misleading.

Or to stick with your phrasing:
1% of the players are so unaware of their individual and unrepresentative non-susceptibility for motion sickness, and honestly that's the fatal flaw with their assessments in VR.

 

[Thinder]

One trick that can be used to compensate for loss of performance due to bad drivers that I use in Elite Dangerous:

Reducing the screen replay to a minimum, so the card doesn't have to fill up as many pixels on top of that of the headset.

On DCS it should be possible to rewrite the lines of the page giving the minimum screen resolution to let's say 1/4th of your screen size, I noticed a real improvement in E-D and it's not too far from DCS when it comes to demands on GPU, antialiasing was immediately looking way better among other things, if anyone knows where this file is and how to do it, I'm buying.

  

1 hour ago, Rifter said:

1% of the players are so unaware of their individual and unrepresentative non-susceptibility for motion sickness, and honestly that's the fatal flaw with their assessments in VR.

That's why I specified that it was only my way to operate, I understand motion sickness but I'm more than happy to go through loads of disorienting events since I flew real A-Cs and jump from them a little later, we're talking +/-G forces, spin with or without the airframe etc, I sailed a lot too as a kid on a 35t pre-WWII racer and never got sea sick, so those issues are not dictating my settings, I guess I'm one of the lucky 1%.

>>>

Just another thing to say: This update have reduced the quality of the visuals and performances in VR to a point where even with reduced settings, I have jerky side details and can't even see the electric lines. Compare this to my flight with the Mirage F1EE at Nellis...

Edited March 2, 2023 by Thinder

[EightyDuce]

29 minutes ago, Rifter said:

Sorry SkateZilla, no offense, but you just triggered me.

In VR I do my adjustments based on the occurrence of motion sickness and immersion breaking frame rate drops.
At some point I realized that an insignificant minority of VR users on the edge of the bell curve seem to be robust enough to go without reprojection and are fine with frame rates below 90fps because they feel they still have enough ‘gameplay smoothness’.
For the vast majority those user reports about having a satisfying VR experience without having 90 fps (or on my account 80 in case of a Rift S) are unfortunately useless and misleading.

Or to stick with your phrasing:
1% of the players are so unaware of their individual and unrepresentative non-susceptibility for motion sickness, and honestly that's the fatal flaw with their assessments in VR.

 

That is the case with me. It's all about smoothness. I can't play without reprojection. With turbo mode and my detail settings I'm usually 55-65fps. With reprojection it's pretty much constantly locked at 45. I will take reprojection at 45fps over no reprojection at 55-60 any day... Because it's completely immersion breaking and unpleasant. 

With turbo mode where I hit 90+ FPS it's super smooth. As soon as it drops below 80s I start to really notice it. So unless I can maintain 90fps, reprojection staying on for me. 

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, EightyDuce said:

That is the case with me. It's all about smoothness. I can't play without reprojection. With turbo mode and my detail settings I'm usually 55-65fps. With reprojection it's pretty much constantly locked at 45. I will take reprojection at 45fps over no reprojection at 55-60 any day... Because it's completely immersion breaking and unpleasant. 

With turbo mode where I hit 90+ FPS it's super smooth. As soon as it drops below 80s I start to really notice it. So unless I can maintain 90fps, reprojection staying on for me. 

Same here. Anything less than 90 feels like a stuttering mess without reprojection on.

[Baldrick33]

2 hours ago, Thinder said:

Well it is the way I obtained the results you can see in my videos, before the DCS update that is, because after that the loss of quality and performances was so bad I couldn't even see the three line in the middle of the HUD and the image on the side was jerky as hell.

I know what constitutes acceptable smoothness seems subjective but in the nicest possible way your videos stutter like crazy, if that is a true recording of what you are seeing then I am not sure what you are showing. 

 

[Thinder]

33 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

I know what constitutes acceptable smoothness seems subjective but in the nicest possible way your videos stutter like crazy, if that is a true recording of what you are seeing then I am not sure what you are showing. 

 

Not being sure seems to be your thing, after your assumptions on the Pico, you missed the fact that those videos were a TEST and I don't think the last one was stuttering like crazy, in any case I didn't finish to set up my system when your beloved geniuses released the most destructive update I have seen for years of playing this game.

Nothing subjective there. Now if you'll excuse me I have seen enough of your avatar and read the B.S you keep sputting. Ignore list. Bye.

[Baldrick33]

51 minutes ago, Thinder said:

Not being sure seems to be your thing, after your assumptions on the Pico, you missed the fact that those videos were a TEST and I don't think the last one was stuttering like crazy, in any case I didn't finish to set up my system when your beloved geniuses released the most destructive update I have seen for years of playing this game.

Nothing subjective there. Now if you'll excuse me I have seen enough of your avatar and read the B.S you keep sputting. Ignore list. Bye.

No need for the aggression. The video I viewed you described as "smooth and nice" in the Youtube description. It isn't what I consider smooth, which maybe the recording or maybe our subjective definitions. I couldn't run with that and would need motion reprojection to remove the jerkiness but each to their own.

[EightyDuce]

VR recordings are difficult to judge smoothness sometimes due to recording jitter which isn't noticeable in the headset but looks terrible on a 2D recording. 

That being said, I haven't seen the video so I don't know if it's a stuttery mess or just normal jitter from VR to 2D recording. 

[Baldrick33]

9 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

VR recordings are difficult to judge smoothness sometimes due to recording jitter which isn't noticeable in the headset but looks terrible on a 2D recording. 

That being said, I haven't seen the video so I don't know if it's a stuttery mess or just normal jitter from VR to 2D recording. 

Thanks. I think it can make it difficult to use videos as stated proof of VR performance/smoothness which was the point I was trying to make in this case. Probably a bad choice of words on my part but I saw a lot of stutters that I wouldn't consider acceptable if that is what I saw in the headset.

[derneuemann]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb Baldrick33:

Thanks. I think it can make it difficult to use videos as stated proof of VR performance/smoothness which was the point I was trying to make in this case. Probably a bad choice of words on my part but I saw a lot of stutters that I wouldn't consider acceptable if that is what I saw in the headset.

strange, in the last video I can't see any stuttering. That looks jerky, but it can also be due to the recording, as already mentioned.

I've also seen videos of RTX3090 and 4080 / 4090 that looked similar.

Think it's probably really s.der recording.

[VirusAM]

14 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

That is the case with me. It's all about smoothness. I can't play without reprojection. With turbo mode and my detail settings I'm usually 55-65fps. With reprojection it's pretty much constantly locked at 45. I will take reprojection at 45fps over no reprojection at 55-60 any day... Because it's completely immersion breaking and unpleasant. 

With turbo mode where I hit 90+ FPS it's super smooth. As soon as it drops below 80s I start to really notice it. So unless I can maintain 90fps, reprojection staying on for me. 

This is my experience as well. 

Without MR, VR is a  torture for me....I don't have sickness (I had the first  two weeks  when I strated using VR in 2017), but it is not  a pleasant experience.

So MR 45 every day, vs 70 fps no MR.

This is the reason I returned the 6900xt and  waited to be able to get a 3090.

Now I hope that AMD made the things better with 7900xtx. 

[GeniusFR]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:00 PM, Thinder said:

Unfortunately I can't tell you anything about it, if there is a subject flying way over my head it's drivers, I haven't studied it in any form or depth.

I only can hope that AMD will get their singer out and sort those drivers issues asap, they are already in the red with their customers and losing market share, I don't think this eludes them.

For this sort of info, the best echo chamber is the AMD forum people don't hesitate to post their grievances there because it looks like it is  where AMD support get their info from unless I get it wrong it's the worst I've seen of all companies I had to contact for support and it looks like the driver issues are not only affecting my GPU generation...

The worst about it is that they removed the drivers that were working well and it doesn't seem like we can get them from anywhere, I don't care about the fancy stuff they added, it made my card lightning fast with excellent visual clarity and it is what I expect from a driver .

I had an EVGA GEFORCE 1080Ti previous to this one and was delighted with its performances, especially because I procured it second hand from CEX and it served me two for years without a glitch, if it had been sufficient to run DCS at 4K, I would probably still have it.

Having said that, I'm happy I get this GPU, it's damned fast as I know from my tests, it's only a matter of drivers and has little to do with the card...

Hello,

Have you test Synchronous Spacewarp (SSW) on Virtual Desktop ? It's work with your GPU ?

Could you share a screen of your actual parameters on VD ?

Thanks !

[Thinder]

1 hour ago, GeniusFR said:

Hello,

Have you test Synchronous Spacewarp (SSW) on Virtual Desktop ? It's work with your GPU ?

Could you share a screen of your actual parameters on VD ?

Thanks !

Hi! No I haven't tried this option. I tend to rely on what worked before the update and more on the GPU since it is quiet fast, most of my parameters related to VR on VD are shut down for this reason, I don't like the idea of having too many apps trying to compete vs each other, the fewer the better but I might try this.

[GeniusFR]

Yes, please give a try with/without.

Parameters: SSW in "auto" and HEVC Codec (more quality but more latency) or H264 codec (less quality / more compression but less latency)

Thanks in advance !

[Thinder]

5 hours ago, GeniusFR said:

Yes, please give a try with/without.

Parameters: SSW in "auto" and HEVC Codec (more quality but more latency) or H264 codec (less quality / more compression but less latency)

Thanks in advance !

Good tip, I'm not too concerned about latency, I'm set up for low latency from my RAM-CPU bounding so this looks interesting, I take note.

>>>

Test with Mirage 2000C top three level test Caucasus map. Lag averages 13.5/14ms.

There is a visible improvement in clarity but the FPS is way down compared to what I obtained in my last test video, the images from close objects and terrain are jerky and the DCS settings are also a lot lower than what they used to be.

I had a reply from a development team member in reply from my insight, they hope the release for full support for multi-core processors will give a noticeable performance boost.

This will go some way to get closer to the speed and quality I know my PC is capable of producing, then it will be up to AMD to sort their drivers because it also holds performances down a little...

I know some players needed this update for their headsets but Pico users certainly didn't...

Edited March 4, 2023 by Thinder

[July]

On 3/3/2023 at 6:23 AM, VirusAM said:

This is my experience as well. 

Without MR, VR is a  torture for me....I don't have sickness (I had the first  two weeks  when I strated using VR in 2017), but it is not  a pleasant experience.

So MR 45 every day, vs 70 fps no MR.

This is the reason I returned the 6900xt and  waited to be able to get a 3090.

Now I hope that AMD made the things better with 7900xtx. 

Sorry to disappoint, but from initial testing and troubleshooting for the past two days with a friend of mine with a 5800X3D, 64 GB of RAM, a Reverb G2, and his new ASRock 7900 XTX Phantom Gaming, VR fps in both OpenXR AND SteamVR is utterly garbage. Running the G2 @ 90hz at around native resolution, on F/A-18C Free Flight Caucasus on medium-high settings (we tried low settings, not much difference), he's only managing 30-45 FPS, SOMETIMES 50-60 but doesn't even matter because Motion Reprojection (MR) is broken on both. MR simply doesn't work on either Mixed Reality + OXR, or Mixed Reality for SteamVR. It doesn't matter if it's forced on or automatic. It simply doesn't work. We have tried both the old 23.2.1 and new 23.2.2 drivers using both the AMD cleaner utility or DDU to remove the drivers before installing the other.

For reference, I have a 12600k, 3080, and Reverb G2 @ 90hz and I am getting SIGNIFICANTLY better performance than him on the same exact medium-high settings and near native resolution, sometimes even maxing out at 90 FPS on in F-18 Caucasus free flight when uncapped, and basically not budging at the MR 45 FPS target. We were wracking our heads trying to figure out if his GPU was somehow defective or if we had messed up the driver installation somehow. We uninstalled and reinstalled nearly every VR related program short of reinstalling DCS and Windows. Same performance stated initially or worse depending on what we did. SVR saw the worst performance which wasn't surprising but I still recommended trying SVR over OXR because the motion reprojection implementation is still leagues better.

My guess, is that AMD's support for VR at the driver level for the 7900 XTX is simply not there right now, and there's no telling when there will be.

Edited March 7, 2023 by July

[some1]

I would check if your friend does not have HAGS enabled (Hardware accelerated gpu scheduling). That tends to break MR and cause issues in VR. But I have no experience with AMD cards.

[July]

2 minutes ago, some1 said:

I would check if your friend does not have HAGS enabled (Hardware accelerated gpu scheduling). That tends to break MR and cause issues in VR. But I have no experience with AMD cards.

HAGS is not even an option with the new 7900 XTX, AMD themselves disabled it at a driver level.

Edited March 7, 2023 by July

[derneuemann]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb July:

Sorry to disappoint, but from initial testing and troubleshooting for the past two days with a friend of mine with a 5800X3D, 64 GB of RAM, a Reverb G2, and his new ASRock 7900 XTX Phantom Gaming, VR fps in both OpenXR AND SteamVR is utterly garbage. Running the G2 @ 90hz at around native resolution, on F/A-18C Free Flight Caucasus on medium-high settings (we tried low settings, not much difference), he's only managing 30-45 FPS, SOMETIMES 50-60 but doesn't even matter because Motion Reprojection (MR) is broken on both. MR simply doesn't work on either Mixed Reality + OXR, or Mixed Reality for SteamVR. It doesn't matter if it's forced on or automatic. It simply doesn't work. We have tried both the old 23.2.1 and new 23.2.2 drivers using both the AMD cleaner utility or DDU to remove the drivers before installing the other.

For reference, I have a 12600k, 3080, and Reverb G2 @ 90hz and I am getting SIGNIFICANTLY better performance than him on the same exact medium-high settings and near native resolution, sometimes even maxing out at 90 FPS on in F-18 Caucasus free flight when uncapped, and basically not budging at the MR 45 FPS target. We were wracking our heads trying to figure out if his GPU was somehow defective or if we had messed up the driver installation somehow. We uninstalled and reinstalled nearly every VR related program short of reinstalling DCS and Windows. Same performance stated initially or worse depending on what we did. SVR saw the worst performance which wasn't surprising but I still recommended trying SVR over OXR because the motion reprojection implementation is still leagues better.

My guess, is that AMD's support for VR at the driver level for the 7900 XTX is simply not there right now, and there's no telling when there will be.

 

I've also read a lot in the AMD forum over the past few days and in my opinion the latest state was that there is a bug with all directly connected headsets with AMD cards of the RX7000 series.

That includes the reverb.

It would be interesting if you have a Quest 2 or Pico 4, or if you can find one to test it against.

Because with these headsets there shouldn't be this one bug.

There was talk, with reverb performance well below the RX6900 and with a Quest 2 significantly faster than the 6900XT.