JASDF F-4/RF-4 Phantoms

[mytai01]

 

[F-2]

Apg-66, AAM-3, ASM-2. Interestingly non-slated.

 

Hud is a modified Alpha jet

 

[RevampedGrunt]

F-4EJ also never had the slat modifications. It won't stop me from using JASDF livery once it releases though.

[SilentGun]

take a look at 1:25 in the video. Are those leading edge slats on the elevators? or what would you call those?

[RevampedGrunt]

They are but they aren't the same that we will be getting. I can't recall if Japan got them before the Agile Eagle program or if they just opted to not have them put on for some reason.

[Nealius]

Japanese Phantoms use leading edge flaps (前翼フラップ) that look similar to those on the F-4J, rather than slats. I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell if they are the same or superficially similar. 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Nealius

[Vampyre]

1 hour ago, SilentGun said:

take a look at 1:25 in the video. Are those leading edge slats on the elevators? or what would you call those?

They are slotted stabs. All early Phantoms (B/C/D) were produced without slotted stabs. Some B's were later retrofitted with them. German F-4F phantoms had the slatted wings but unslotted stabs. The Japanese F-4EJ Had Un-slatted wings with slotted stabs. The Japanese RF-4EJ, being a conversion of the F-4EJ also had slotted stabs. All RF-4C/E's had un-slatted wings and un-slotted stabs and as such were the fastest of the operational Phantoms. All E/G/J/K/N and S Phantoms had slotted stabs.

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, Vampyre said:

All RF-4C/E's had un-slatted wings and un-slotted stabs and as such were the fastest of the operational Phantoms.

Some greek (and turkish?) RF-4Es do have slatted wings.

[Vampyre]

10 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Some greek (and turkish?) RF-4Es do have slatted wings.

Interesting. Evidently there were 16 RF-4E's built with wing slats. Eight for Greece and Eight for Turkey. The reason some of them have slats and some don't is that not all of the respective countries RF-4E's are from the original block 66 production deliveries from the US. They were augmented by larger numbers of ex-Luftwaffe RF-4E's that did not have the slats. This has me wondering why they have slats as it is slightly detrimental to their performance as reconnaissance platforms. Perhaps McAir werent building the older RF-4E wings anymore when the orders for the Greek and Turk RF-4E's came in. IIRC the original RF-4E wings were from the F-4D. Good to know.

[Nealius]

Dumb question: How can you tell slatted vs. unslatted vs. leading edge flaps on parked aircraft like the pic of that Greek Phantom? With the devices stowed I have trouble discerning the three types.

[Bananabrai]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Some greek (and turkish?) RF-4Es do have slatted wings.

Awesome, I want this in DCS.

[Bremspropeller]

58 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Dumb question: How can you tell slatted vs. unslatted vs. leading edge flaps on parked aircraft like the pic of that Greek Phantom? With the devices stowed I have trouble discerning the three types.

You can tell by the slat track fairings just above the external tank on the outboard station.

Compare this to the EJ, which has none:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Japan-Air-Force/McDonnell-Douglas-Mitsubishi-F-4EJ-Kai-Phantom-II/1879939/L

4 hours ago, Nealius said:

Japanese Phantoms use leading edge flaps (前翼フラップ) that look similar to those on the F-4J, rather than slats. I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell if they are the same or superficially similar. 

I think they really are identical.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Vampyre]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

Dumb question: How can you tell slatted vs. unslatted vs. leading edge flaps on parked aircraft like the pic of that Greek Phantom? With the devices stowed I have trouble discerning the three types.

There are three types of leading edge devices on the Phantoms. The Air Force slatted wing, the Navy slatted wing and the un-slatted wing. The un-slatted wing uses leading edge flaps with boundary layer control to reduce takeoff and landing speeds. The slatted wings had similar effects for takeoff and landing as leading edge flap equipped jets but improved the high alpha maneuvering capabilities of the Phantom as well. The down side of the slats is that they reduced the top speed and slightly increased fuel consumption in cruise configuration. The Japanese F-4EJ Phantoms were originally built to augment the F-104J's as interceptors where speed and range were more important than the turning ability of the jets.

[mytai01]

The slats are unmistakable because you can see them on the outboard wings leading edge.

[Gene K]

On 12/1/2022 at 2:59 PM, mytai01 said:

The slats are unmistakable because you can see them on the outboard wings leading edge.

Yes, but the outboard slats are sometimes hard to discern on photos taken at ground level. in those situations, the most obvious slat indicators are as shown on the attachment:

1= Slat actuator fairings; 2= wing fence; and 3 = the outboard slats.

The Navy slats differed from the Air Force in the cross section of the slats, as well as the shape of the wing fence.  What gets really convoluted is the difference between USN and USAF  coordinated leading edge and trailing edge flap positions ...  as well as the leading edge and trailing edge flaps relationships ... using cockpit switches and/or automatic actuation.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Gene K

[F-2]

https://www.scribd.com/document/429057021/F-16-Pulse-Doppler-Radar-AN-APG-66-Performance-1983
 

We have good documentation on APG-66 too, their are other papers too

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1457409

[exhausted]

On 11/30/2022 at 3:30 PM, F-2 said:

Apg-66, AAM-3, ASM-2. Interestingly non-slated.

 

Hud is a modified Alpha jet

 

null

[Admiral_ZIPANGU]

If you want to know more about F-4EJ Kai or F-4EJ, I recommend you to visit the actual aircraft in Japan, EJ Kai (17-8440) is preserved at Hamamatsu Air Park and the first EJ (17-8301) is preserved at Gifu Air Base.

In particular, 17-8440 is worth a visit as it was the last Phantom produced in the world.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Admiral_ZIPANGU

[Omega417]

Good resources on the Japanese Phantoms

F-4EJ:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_13.html

F-4EJ KAI:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_14.html

[Nealius]

I've got a Japanese book with a lot of pictures of most BuNos, plus a list of all BuNos, as well as good shots of external details and cockpit pics. Sadly not much on avionics, which is strange considering another book from the same publisher has lots of general avionics info on the F-2.

[Slick_441]

So during the last 20 years of it's service (in the 2000's), what was the primary role of the EJ? The list of approved weapons is readily available, but I can't seem to find any photos or videos of them being loaded with anything other than dual rack Falcon AAM's. I would imagine that the F-15 and F-2's would have been the first choices for anything air-to-air?

[Kalasnkova74]

1 hour ago, Slick_441 said:

So during the last 20 years of its service (in the 2000's), what was the primary role of the EJ? The list of approved weapons is readily available, but I can't seem to find any photos or videos of them being loaded with anything other than dual rack Falcon AAM's. I would imagine that the F-15 and F-2's would have been the first choices for anything air-to-air?

Interceptor / air defense. This is one of the reasons (plus the retrofit cost) why they never featured leading edge slats. Speed matters when you need to defend against North Korean or Soviet/ Russian intruders. 
 

Initially they started with the F-4EJ, which is essentially a Japanese built version of a late 1970s/Early 1980s F-4E. 
 

 

Incidentally the final F-4 ever built worldwide was an F-4EJ Kai, serial #17-0440. What makes the Kai befitting the “improved” name? It included modernized avionics such as an APG-66 radar, updated INS, updated HOTAS switchgear (old school F-4EJs predated the USAF HOTAS suite), JDAM and indigenous anti ship missile compatibility.  

 

Finally we have a unique beast in the RF-4EJ below :

 

“Kalash you moron, that’s clearly not a recon Phantom! Look at the nose!”

Please step away from your keyboard and remain calm. I haven’t lost my mind- it’s a recce Phantom. See, the wily Japanese during the F-4EJ Kai program pulled 12 Phantoms and modified them for the reconnaissance mission. Fitted with updated ground mapping terrain following radar, a new RWR , plus a recon package including a French ELINT pod ,  in line photo pod and a side looking LOROP pod (seen fitted above) these would serve alongside their “normal” reconnaissance in the 501st Hikotai. Still kept the cannon too, far as I know. 
 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Kalasnkova74

[Kalasnkova74]

Here’s why I know all that stuff; it’s from research I did in preparation for producing this diecast F-4EJ video review 

 

[Slick_441]

@Kalasnkova74 Also had no idea about JDAM capability! Thanks for this. 

[Slick_441]

May have posted this elsewhere (can't remember), but some fantastic a2a footage.