reported earlier AIM-120 can still be defeated by barrel rolls at high altitudes

[Notarobot]

guys wtf 

This is a bug or at least a guidance problem. Stop trying to justify it please
Just keep flying straight through a barrage of aim 120's head on with a 100% evade success rate cannot be ok

 

Edited June 30, 2024 by Notarobot

[Hobel]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb Notarobot:

uys wtf 

This is a bug or at least a guidance problem. Stop trying to justify it please
Just keep flying straight through a barrage of aim 120's head on with a 100% evade success rate cannot be ok

And now we're driving round in circles for the second time.  

again, your videos are old since there have been guidence and pf updates, which has an impact on the scenarios depicted in your videos, so send new tracks if you can.  

There were also ecm adjustments, so if ecm was used in the video that is another factor.

 

Uploading old videos even though there were updates afterwards and declaring them as proof is not good.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2024 by Hobel

[Notarobot]

Allright, i'll check back when i have flown a bit 

 

[Pavlin_33]

On 6/30/2024 at 4:58 PM, Notarobot said:

guys wtf 

This is a bug or at least a guidance problem. Stop trying to justify it please
Just keep flying straight through a barrage of aim 120's head on with a 100% evade success rate cannot be ok

 

 

That's why I have asked for a track. Million things can be at play here: cheating, lag....

I can tell you that if I did simple rolls like that, I would get a 120 in the face.

Also looks like that guy is immune to all missiles fired at him with no special maneuvering

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

6 hours ago, Pavlin_33 said:

That's why I have asked for a track. Million things can be at play here: cheating, lag....

I can tell you that if I did simple rolls like that, I would get a 120 in the face.

Also looks like that guy is immune to all missiles fired at him with no special maneuvering

Not going to lie, it took me a few tries to successfully doge both (so maybe something was recently improved) but in this track, both miss. As mentioned before, this seems to mainly be an issue related to the proximity fuse or more specifically, that's its too low. Try this with another missile cough, cough the SD-10 cough, cough, or in another..... unnamed combat simulator, and you will get smacked in the face darn near every time. 

 

This track also highlights another problem. As of now there are ZERO consequences to over speeding and or over loading your jet. In this track, the maneuvers that I had to do to pull this off would have potentially caused serious damage and or destroyed the aircraft. 

120_Exploit.trk

Edited July 1, 2024 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[Pavlin_33]

15 hours ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

Not going to lie, it took me a few tries to successfully doge both (so maybe something was recently improved) but in this track, both miss. As mentioned before, this seems to mainly be an issue related to the proximity fuse or more specifically, that's its too low. Try this with another missile cough, cough the SD-10 cough, cough, or in another..... unnamed combat simulator, and you will get smacked in the face darn near every time. 

 

This track also highlights another problem. As of now there are ZERO consequences to over speeding and or over loading your jet. In this track, the maneuvers that I had to do to pull this off would have potentially caused serious damage and or destroyed the aircraft. 

120_Exploit.trk 222.14 kB · 3 downloads

 

Any chance for a tacview also?

The track file requires F16 module.

[Hobel]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Pavlin_33:

Any chance for a tacview also?

The track file requires F16 module.

 

Tacview-20240702-170954-DCS-120_Exploit.trk.zip.acmi

[skywalker22]

On 6/30/2024 at 1:43 PM, Hobel said:

I also see an enormous number of user errors... hardly anyone knows what they are doing.

Exactly.

On 6/30/2024 at 1:43 PM, Hobel said:

i am also on the server from time to time and always shoot my missles at 40-55nm and have a good PK.

Maybe against to those who hardly know what they are doing. Or if you get very lucky against to those who know that they are doing from very high above (Angles 60-70) at Mach 1.5+ .

If not in these parameters (lower and/or slower), you hav to come waaaay closer. 

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb skywalker22:

If not in these parameters (lower and/or slower), you hav to come waaaay closer. 

for the shots mentioned, 40angels and +1.5 are perfectly adequate.

loft was a bit too much otherwise the missle arrives with a good speed in the target area and I shoot  here under 40.000feet and only 1.0M.
Of course a human would have avoided this missle, but he still has to go on the defensive and give up altitude.

just try it out on GS and only shoot from over 40nm, loft is the key here minmum is 15-20°

Tacview-20240703-122539-DCS.zip.acmi

Edited July 3, 2024 by Hobel

[skywalker22]

21 hours ago, Hobel said:

for the shots mentioned, 40angels and +1.5 are perfectly adequate.

loft was a bit too much otherwise the missle arrives with a good speed in the target area and I shoot  here under 40.000feet and only 1.0M.
Of course a human would have avoided this missle, but he still has to go on the defensive and give up altitude.

just try it out on GS and only shoot from over 40nm, loft is the key here minmum is 15-20°

Tacview-20240703-122539-DCS.zip.acmi 126.05 kB · 0 downloads

 

I'm also on GS weekly. And I'm pretty good at it.

I hardly get knocked down from these kind of params, only in cases when I'm not careful enough. But I ones got shot down (which is my record) from 52nm away, from roughly same params as yours, but at that moment I didn't think it's possible to shot me down from that far, that's why I was pushing towards him. Now I know its not good to mess up with high an fast flying F-15E. Here is the Tacview replay on youtube. Just my example of being greedy and how to learn it in a hard way

 

Edited July 4, 2024 by skywalker22

[Pavlin_33]

Yup that definitely seems like a guidance bug. I am not expert but looks like the 120 still magically reads target's AoA. I don't know what else would it cause it to pull like that.

[Notarobot]

 

From today. It's still a thing

 

[Hobel]

Am 4.7.2024 um 14:21 schrieb Pavlin_33:

Yup that definitely seems like a guidance bug. I am not expert but looks like the 120 still magically reads target's AoA. I don't know what else would it cause it to pull like that.

Maybe yes, but look at the scenarios posted here, the missle usually only misses the target by a few metres 10-20m.  Which is still good.

However, the real missle would explode at the closest possible calculated point before it simply flies past.

  In a newsletter a new PF logic was mentioned, maybe such an implementation will come to dcs in the future.  And fixes the problem we see here.

[Pavlin_33]

On 7/12/2024 at 11:33 PM, Hobel said:

Maybe yes, but look at the scenarios posted here, the missle usually only misses the target by a few metres 10-20m.  Which is still good.

However, the real missle would explode at the closest possible calculated point before it simply flies past.

  In a newsletter a new PF logic was mentioned, maybe such an implementation will come to dcs in the future.  And fixes the problem we see here.

I think that the blast zone is a dynamic thing in RL, but I am not exactly sure how it works.

[ruxtmp]

 

[GGTharos]

8 hours ago, Pavlin_33 said:

I think that the blast zone is a dynamic thing in RL, but I am not exactly sure how it works.

The shape of it is, and it is AFAIK, set by the fuze/target sensor.  A radar fuze will use the doppler effect to determine closure and therefore set off the primer charges in a given order.  There are other ways to accomplish this, eg. the 'head on' and 'tail on' settings may affect missile settings, etc.  Not sure if a laser fuze would do more than just 'reflected the beam with enough intensity, go boom now'.