Pico 4: how to set it up for DCS?

[Thinder]

On 2/1/2023 at 1:14 PM, RealDCSpilot said:

Maybe an important info... Just tested OpenXR toolkit with VD streaming on Pico4. While it can help with gaining some more FPS on paper, it also degrades the image quality. This makes sense, because fixed foveated rendering changes how pixels are drawn for each frame drastically and means more workload for encoding and decoding. It shows a lot of compression artifacts, something i hadn't seen before by just using VD at GodLike with SSW enabled.

 

This is my find as well. I experience a lot of it which is particularly annoying when flying at very low levels where it's where I do most of my testing, I also do vertical climbs for scenery and clouds rendering quality and this occurs mainly at lower levels.

I'm not sure how to get rid of it, but I lost a lot of image quality through the lens since this update, when I first started setting up my new GPU, I maxed out nearly all DCS settings to push it and it was fine with the Pico.

I could clearly see the electric lines and if you watch the replays there were nearly no flickering on the side of the screen where it tends to occur when you pass by ground objects at high speed. Rig set up in VR

My VR settings were simple: Streaming Assistant. Steam VR Beta. Virtual Desktop and go.

In DCS I had the pixel density up to 1.6 without problem too. Now I can't run this rig at stock DCS settings without this cyclic degradation of central area, if I try higher settings, the HUD is completely fogged...

I upgraded to Windows 11 Pro because Win 10 crashed so often it became nearly impossible to reinstall it, there clearly was an issue, also I got a brand new kit of 64MB Cl14 Win 10 didn't support, my PC runs smooth, no fault, high performances in tests with 3DMark Pro and my replays looks great, only this VR bottleneck remains to be resolved.

I'm gonna try to play with and without the --force_enable_VR --force_OpenXR line, I'm not convinced Open XR works for everyone...

[RealDCSpilot]

@Thinder Sorry, it looks like you are mixing up a couple of things. I was talking about the Windows app OpenXR Toolkit which offers some additional tuning options for the OpenXR pipeline. Running DCS with plain OpenXR and with Virtual Desktop at Godlike preset over SteamVR does not introduce the problem. I also don't get how you use "Streaming Assistant. Steam VR Beta. Virtual Desktop and go." together (?) This can't work, you simply can't use two streaming softwares at the same time. Pico's Streaming Assistant is definitely not on par with Virtual Desktop in the high end settings realm.
On my end i already uninstalled OpenXR Toolkit and went back to my prior setup: Virtual Desktop Streamer on Windows, Virtual Desktop running on the Pico 4, then SteamVR and launching DCS via shortcut with "--force_OpenXR". DCS PD setting always at 1.0, but render resolution raised with SteamVR manual setting.
I also have no reference about how a RX7900XTX performs with VR and streaming.

" I'm not convinced Open XR works for everyone..."

So if you are having image quality degradation it's definitely not the recently implemented OpenXR API for DCS.

Edited February 5, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[Thinder]

2 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

@Thinder This can't work, you simply can't use two streaming softwares at the same time. Pico's Streaming Assistant is definitely not on par with Virtual Desktop in the high end settings realm.
 

Well, yes it does. This is what I used to do all my system set up and it worked, not only it did work but I had very good through the lens image, as for the quality, watch the videos, after the update, I just never was able to reproduce those settings and get my headset to work properly.

 

Quote

So if you are having image quality degradation it's definitely not the recently implemented OpenXR API for DCS.

That's probably why so many players are complaining about it since this update, right? Now instead of trying to tell me that all I experienced before never happened, perhaps you could quit the attitude and think about it. I've been through all of this before and am not going to take more of it...

Pico doesn't start without Steam VR or Steam without Streaming Assistant, now you can tell me how you manage to get it to work without it and yes it works since I am using it right now.

Quote

On my end i already uninstalled OpenXR Toolkit and went back to my prior setup: Virtual Desktop Streamer on Windows, Virtual Desktop running on the Pico 4, then SteamVR and launching DCS via shortcut with "--force_OpenXR". DCS PD setting always at 1.0, but render resolution raised with SteamVR manual setting.

Same here, waste of storage space, one of the solutions proposed to users after they experienced issues AFTER the update, and... I didn't know about Pico's VirtualDesktop Streamer, Open XR app or anything else until I hit those bugs and was suggested those solutions, as you mentioned, they don't work as well as what I had before. = FACTS.

Quote

I also have no reference about how a RX7900XTX performs with VR and streaming.

I do, and it's FAST, SMOOTH and TROUBLE-FREE. Now watch the videos and come back when you figured you missed something, here are the settings I used.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Thinder

[RealDCSpilot]

@Thinder Man, if you use Virtual Desktop you can NEVER use Pico Streaming Assistant at the same time! VD's compression quality is much better and it also lets you start SteamVR without any problem. It's always Streaming Assistant OR Virtual Desktop. And now, with all your information, it seems that you never run Virtual Desktop properly to be able to tell about the difference.
Your settings are also far away from being efficient and your jittery video shows it. MSAA, SSLR and SSAO should be off (MSAA can be traded for Super Sampling)... PD in DCS is also inefficient, it's better to use SteamVR's render resolution setting to tune Super Sampling.
Whatever is going on on your system, 130-180 fps in VR (???), should never look this choppy at 00:16:00:

Whatever info is shown there in the left corner is not what is really going on.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[Peedee]

The solution to getting incredible framerates in VR (with the Pico) is to use pretty high graphic settings i DCS, run both Virtual Desktop and Pico Streaming assistant at the same time - and as an extra number - crank up PD in DCS VR settings to 1.6 --- this will get you 180fps?? In VR.

More seriously, trying running both Pico Streaming assistant and Virtual desktop at the same time.... Even if it did work, which it doesn´t  - I don´t understand the reasoning behind trying to use two different streaming methods at the same time. Virtual Desktop gives a cleaner image than Pico streaming assistant, but I understand those who cannot use Virtual Desktop with Wifi or getting bad connection with that, well then USB C through the Streaming assistant is a solution. Though a poorer one than a good Wifi connection through Virtual Desktop. 

And for @RealDCSpilot - the Open XR Toolkit, I still got it installed. Though I disable it through its own menu, and it doesn´t seem to interfere with DCS´graphic quality or frame rate. I enable it for MSFS2020.  I also got a HP Reverb G2 which I use it for. And thanks for your help earlier in this thread. I've had some very nice mission flying after I got rid of my stuttering. Not sure which step that helped the most.. but anyway. Very nice now. GodLike+cranking up resolution in SteamVR settings even more gives a pretty clear picture - so much so that I now think my "official" DCS headset from now on will be the Pico 4, and not the Reverb G2 anymore. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Peedee

[RealDCSpilot]

1 hour ago, Peedee said:

The solution to getting incredible framerates in VR (with the Pico) is to use pretty high graphic settings i DCS, run both Virtual Desktop and Pico Streaming assistant at the same time - and as an extra number - crank up PD in DCS VR settings to 1.6 --- this will get you 180fps?? In VR.

xD yeah, a lot of his "FACTS" do not make sense... Unless he is from the future and already plays DCS with multithreading, DLSS and Vulkan.

By the way, you can also use USB-tethering with Virtual Desktop. Works pretty seemlessly and gives constant 1200 Mbps.

About OXR Toolkit, yeah. If you still have a cable VR HMD it can help to improve performance. But with a wireless headset, especially fixed foveated rendering seems to degrade compressed streaming quality a lot (also found this by testing MSFS2020 - got 10 fps more but clearly visible compression artifacts in the image center).

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[propeler]

On 2/5/2023 at 8:08 AM, RealDCSpilot said:

launching DCS via shortcut with "--force_OpenXR"

Does it work for you? I constantly getting message that key is not supported on last open beta DCS

[RealDCSpilot]

@propelerIf you want to put it in a shortcut, the line must be
"X:\DCS World OpenBeta\bin\DCS.exe" --force_OpenXR

The command line option after the quotation marks.
You can also make a simple .bat file with: DCS.exe --force_OpenXR

[Phantom_Mark]

16 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

By the way, you can also use USB-tethering with Virtual Desktop. Works pretty seemlessly and gives constant 1200 Mbps.



 

 

Any guide for that please ?

Edited February 7, 2023 by Phantom_Mark

[RealDCSpilot]

@Phantom_Mark

1. get a USB-C 10G cable (USB 3.2 Gen2) / WLAN still needed for the startup copyright protection check of Virtual Desktop
2. Enable Developer Mode: Go to Settings > General > About -> Then scroll down and click 7 times on 'Software Version'
3. install the settings.apk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PUTpT9boTKssDXQ2qUCLxOKM3LPxQtlA/view
4. Enable USB tethering via the settings app on Pico 4
5. Check Windows network settings for the new ethernet connection and set it to "private"
6. launch Virtual Desktop on Pico 4 and VD Streamer on Windows (WLAN still active on Pico 4 !!)
7. Let VD connect like usual via WLAN, wait a couple of seconds and then switch off WLAN on the Pico 4

VD should now automatically switch to the USB network connection...

Steps 1-3/5 only need to be done once.

Edited February 17, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[Phantom_Mark]

Winner, thanks    Will try this later

[leonsilver]

9 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

@Phantom_Mark

1. get a USB-C 10G cable (USB 3.2 Gen2) / WLAN still needed for the startup copyright protection check of Virtual Desktop
2. Enable Developer Mode: Go to Settings > General > About -> Then scroll down and click 7 times on 'Software Version'
3. install the settings.apk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PUTpT9boTKssDXQ2qUCLxOKM3LPxQtlA/view
4. Enable USB tethering via the settings app on Pico 4
5. Check Windows network settings for the new ethernet connection and set it to "private"
6. launch Virtual Desktop on Pico 4 and VD Streamer on Windows (WLAN still active on Pico 4 !!)
7. Let VD connect like usual via WLAN, wait a couple of seconds and then switch off WLAN on the Pico 4

VD should now automatically switch to the USB network connection...

 

And does anyone have experience with this? Better than a WiFi 6 router?
(I have a TP-Link Archer AX72 AX5400 router)

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

All I can warn is: beware of BSoD.

[Hillman]

>And does anyone have experience with this? Better than a WiFi 6 router?

I tried it without any issues. But I can’t say I saw any noticable improvements. I have a Wifi 6 access point near by and the convinience of wireless is so nice.

[RealDCSpilot]

13 hours ago, leonsilver said:

And does anyone have experience with this? Better than a WiFi 6 router?

I ran my Pico 4 and VD via USB cable for a little while a couple months ago. The only benefits are a stable 1200 Mbps connection and maybe a little less latency. But after getting 3rd party accessories to mod the Pico 4 (Logitech Chorus) i went back to more convenient usage with Wifi connection and the USB-C cable on the power adapter to keep charging the HMD for longer sessions in VR.
But for people with an older router, low Wifi quality or with a router not in the same room, the USB-C connection might be the best alternative solution. However, you can also connect a Ethernet-to-USB-C adapter to the Pico 4 and achieve the same thing.

Edited February 8, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[Peedee]

2 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

I ran my Pico 4 and VD via USB cable for a little while a couple months ago. The only benefits are a stable 1200 Mbps connection and maybe a little less latency. But after getting 3rd party accessories to mod the Pico 4 (Logitech Chorus) i went back to more convenient usage with Wifi connection and the USB-C cable on the power adapter to keep charging the HMD for longer sessions in VR.
But for people with an older router, low Wifi quality or with a router not in the same room, the USB-C connection might be the best alternative solution. However, you can also connect a Ethernet-to-USB-C adapter to the Pico 4 and achieve the same thing.

 

I did that, Ethernet-to-USB-C adapter. But it was a hassle. The adapter, though not big at all, needed extra power, but also an extra USB-C female adapter connected to the Ethernet-USB adapters USB-C output, and then the extra USB-C going to the headset from that. And there it was strapped tight. But... Nah, didn´t gain any noticeble decrease in latency, and my WiFi6 connection stays stable between 1080 and 1200 anyway. So. I dropped it. Too many wires. Though sometimes I plug in power in the headset for longer sessions. 

Just wish Pico would release a Pico 4 Link, like the Pico 3 Link which has both stand alone wireless functionality and a Display Port connection for PCVR. 

[leonsilver]

Guys.

I have the following configuration:
- i9 12900K
- Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Ultra
- Kingston Fury 64GB Beast RGB DDR5 5600MHz CL40
- GIGABYTE GV-N309TGAMING OC-24GD GeForce RTX 3090 Ti 24GB GDDR6X GAMING OC
- SAMSUNG 2TB 870 QVO (DCS Open beta)
- Samsung - 980 PRO 1TB - MZ-V8P1T0BW (System)

Could you post a screenshot of what settings you used?
This is my fourth headset and I'm a little "disappointed" that the graphic settings had to be significantly reduced.

 

THX

[RealDCSpilot]

Try these settings in your options.lua as a baseline:

In VD set the ultra preset (3090) and turn SSW to always on. In SteamVR set resolution from auto to manual and experiment with resolutions around 3000x3000 per eye.

Edited February 8, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[crispy12]

As an owner of the Quest 2, Reverb G2 and Pimax 8KX, I kept going back to the G2 as the centre sharpness/clarity was outstanding for simulators. I managed to also get good performance with a 3090ti.

What do you guys think of the Pico 4 compared to the G2? I like the pancake lenses and overall increased sweet spot, but not sure if it's worth spending more for this generation. I also have a ton of Quest 2 games so comparing this with the Quest Pro as well

Edited February 8, 2023 by crispy12

[VirusAM]

I tried the Pico 4, and I have returned for now (I picked really just to try, then I will sell some of my stuff and retake again). 

I had just some hour to try it and then had to repack and bring back, but I was not satisfied.

I used Virtual Desktop, tried both with the Wifi hotspot from my PC (pc is 1gbit wired and has wifi6, and my router is not wifi 6) and usb-c to ethernet adapter.

With wifi the connection was aroung 600mbit, with cable I don't know as Virtual Desktop did not show those statistics but the connection was stable.

However the image with SteamVR was very strange (actually I have a Rift S), it was like the image was more flat and less curved (for example the DCS main menu) has anyone experienced this?How to solve?

I used virtual deskop in Ultra mode (I have an rtx 3090) and the steamvr  res was 2700x2700 (around those), the image was very clear (never seen a VR like this) but the performance was very bad. 36fps with 72hz mode and 45 with 90hz mode, but it was like ASW (motion smoothing or what Pico is using) was not working as I had a very bad motion sensation, both when moving head and when flying. 

Is that possible with a 3090???Do i have a fake one?

My performance with Rift S is not bad (I remember it was better before 2.8) but with Pico 4 it is completely unplayable for me (I cannot stand without using motion reprojection). Maybe I was doing something wrong, but in the future I want to try again.

So TLDR

 

1) Strange "flat" effect in DCS...difficult to explain but where is to understand when is experienced (difference with other headset)..how to solve?

2) How to understand if motion reprojection (or like it is called in this one) is working?

3) How is possible that the performance is so slow with my machine? (5800x3d, 64gb, rtx 3090)?

Edited February 9, 2023 by VirusAM

[Peedee]

18 hours ago, VirusAM said:

I tried the Pico 4, and I have returned for now (I picked really just to try, then I will sell some of my stuff and retake again). 

I had just some hour to try it and then had to repack and bring back, but I was not satisfied.

I used Virtual Desktop, tried both with the Wifi hotspot from my PC (pc is 1gbit wired and has wifi6, and my router is not wifi 6) and usb-c to ethernet adapter.

With wifi the connection was aroung 600mbit, with cable I don't know as Virtual Desktop did not show those statistics but the connection was stable.

However the image with SteamVR was very strange (actually I have a Rift S), it was like the image was more flat and less curved (for example the DCS main menu) has anyone experienced this?How to solve?

I used virtual deskop in Ultra mode (I have an rtx 3090) and the steamvr  res was 2700x2700 (around those), the image was very clear (never seen a VR like this) but the performance was very bad. 36fps with 72hz mode and 45 with 90hz mode, but it was like ASW (motion smoothing or what Pico is using) was not working as I had a very bad motion sensation, both when moving head and when flying. 

Is that possible with a 3090???Do i have a fake one?

My performance with Rift S is not bad (I remember it was better before 2.8) but with Pico 4 it is completely unplayable for me (I cannot stand without using motion reprojection). Maybe I was doing something wrong, but in the future I want to try again.

So TLDR

 

1) Strange "flat" effect in DCS...difficult to explain but where is to understand when is experienced (difference with other headset)..how to solve?

2) How to understand if motion reprojection (or like it is called in this one) is working?

3) How is possible that the performance is so slow with my machine? (5800x3d, 64gb, rtx 3090)?

 

Not sure I can answer those questions. All I can say that my former system was an I9 9900k@5Ghz, 32GbRam and a RTX 3090. I had way better performance than you describe here- Both with the Pico 4 and HP Reverb G2. 

Nr 2 - I can feel it is smooth with reprojection working. And it is working for me with Pico 4. ASW always on in Virtual Desktop PC app. 

If you just had the headset for an hour or some more, then I believe that you didn't have enough time to get the settings right. You should have had a better experience than this. There's a lot to experiment with in Virtual Desktop, so it can take some time you get the settings right for you.

Now I have an I9 13900K and a RTX 4090 and it is incredibly smooth with reprojection and a clear picture almost from edge to edge. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Peedee

[Peedee]

21 hours ago, crispy12 said:

As an owner of the Quest 2, Reverb G2 and Pimax 8KX, I kept going back to the G2 as the centre sharpness/clarity was outstanding for simulators. I managed to also get good performance with a 3090ti.

What do you guys think of the Pico 4 compared to the G2? I like the pancake lenses and overall increased sweet spot, but not sure if it's worth spending more for this generation. I also have a ton of Quest 2 games so comparing this with the Quest Pro as well

 

The Quest Pro is way more expensive, so I would have kept my Quest 2 for those Meta games   - and get a Pico 4  

I have Quest 2, Pico 4, HP Reverb G2. In DCS now I prefer the Pico 4 over the G2. I have an I9 13900K and RTX 4090, and with that I cranked up the resolution to 3800x3800 in SteamVR, ASW always on (motion reprojection in Virtual Desktop app). I dare to say the the clarity I have now is on par with the G2 - except that it is all over the picture, edge to edge. So the picture seems clearer overall, also in the center. With my RTX 3090 I did not experience that, it was clear but not G2 clear picture. This was of course because I had to run SteamVR with a lower resolution than now. 

Remember that the Quest Pro even though it has flat lenses, the total panel resolution is about 30% lower than the Pico 4. So it will be easer to run, but I don't think it will be as clear as Pico 4. But, I haven't tested Quest Pro, so I won't say anything for sure. 

[crispy12]

6 hours ago, Peedee said:

The Quest Pro is way more expensive, so I would have kept my Quest 2 for those Meta games   - and get a Pico 4  

I have Quest 2, Pico 4, HP Reverb G2. In DCS now I prefer the Pico 4 over the G2. I have an I9 13900K and RTX 4090, and with that I cranked up the resolution to 3800x3800 in SteamVR, ASW always on (motion reprojection in Virtual Desktop app). I dare to say the the clarity I have now is on par with the G2 - except that it is all over the picture, edge to edge. So the picture seems clearer overall, also in the center. With my RTX 3090 I did not experience that, it was clear but not G2 clear picture. This was of course because I had to run SteamVR with a lower resolution than now. 

Remember that the Quest Pro even though it has flat lenses, the total panel resolution is about 30% lower than the Pico 4. So it will be easer to run, but I don't think it will be as clear as Pico 4. But, I haven't tested Quest Pro, so I won't say anything for sure. 

Thanks a lot

Yes I went ahead and purchased a Pico yesterday as well. I'm on a 3090ti with 5900x. Running it with Virtual Desktop and Godlike mode with stock headset and SteamVR settings. I had capped 36 FPS in DCS, very smooth and the sweet spot is much better as you have said. The headset itself is very comfortable and the FOV is better than the G2 even with the glasses insert. I ordered prescription lenses so will be removing that insert when they arrive to get better FOV.

I'm going to be adjusting SteamVR and try to tune the VR experience today.

Can I clarify the steps to starting DCS? When clicking my DCS icon (no suffixes), it loads up DCS in the VR aspect ratio but doesn't appear in VD. I have to launch SteamVR through the VD app, then right click on VD in the Windows System Tray and click "Launch Game..." and select the EXE. 

Also how do I use VR Neck Safer with Pico? The OpenXR Neck Safer doesn't work anymore. Should i use the VRNS version?

6 hours ago, Peedee said:

Not sure I can answer those questions. All I can say that my former system was an I9 9900k@5Ghz, 32GbRam and a RTX 3090. I had way better performance than you describe here- Both with the Pico 4 and HP Reverb G2. 

Nr 2 - I can feel it is smooth with reprojection working. And it is working for me with Pico 4. ASW always on in Virtual Desktop PC app. 

If you just had the headset for an hour or some more, then I believe that you didn't have enough time to get the settings right. You should have had a better experience than this. There's a lot to experiment with in Virtual Desktop, so it can take some time you get the settings right for you.

Now I have an I9 13900K and a RTX 3090 and it is incredibly smooth with reprojection and a clear picture almost from edge to edge. 

Don't think an hour is sufficient to really get a good impression. Wifi streaming is quite dependent on your hardware, and even with the Quest 2 it took me a while to get it working smoothly. My Pico 4 runs VERY smooth and sharp in Virtual Desktop, so you might want to consider having a little more time to dig in to the settings.

Edited February 10, 2023 by crispy12

[usmave]

Hi, im new to dcs and want to upgrade my quest 2 for dcs only. Maybe some Highlights like alyx and hl mods. I have a 5800x3d, 32 gb 3600mhz and a 3080 10gb, not planing to update untill a least twice Performance for same money.
Getting psvr2 next days i have annother system to use.
 

My goal is to get best optics and smooth fps for dcs and maybe msfs, and i wanted wait till quest 3 but now changed my mind and im struggling if the pico Neo 3 link or the pico 4 will give me better results. Planned to use fived foeaved rendering to increase fps.
 

Tl:dr
Pico Neo 3 link or pico 4?

[Peedee]

8 hours ago, usmave said:

Hi, im new to dcs and want to upgrade my quest 2 for dcs only. Maybe some Highlights like alyx and hl mods. I have a 5800x3d, 32 gb 3600mhz and a 3080 10gb, not planing to update untill a least twice Performance for same money.
Getting psvr2 next days i have annother system to use.
 

My goal is to get best optics and smooth fps for dcs and maybe msfs, and i wanted wait till quest 3 but now changed my mind and im struggling if the pico Neo 3 link or the pico 4 will give me better results. Planned to use fived foeaved rendering to increase fps.
 

Tl:dr
Pico Neo 3 link or pico 4?

The Pico Neo 3 has the same resolution as your Quest 2, and also same kind of lenses - freshnel.  Also, the Pico Neo 3 has smaller field of View than the Pico 4. So... I wouldn't go down that route. However, it does have a Display Port connection to the PC for playing PCVR/Sims games. But still, I would not spend money on something that has that resolution and type of lenses now. 

Pico 4 has higher resolution, noticeably so, and much better lenses ,than the Quest 2. (I have both, Quest 2 and Pico 4). The Pico 4 demands more horsepower to be run to its full potential than the Quest 2. Still, with your setup, you will enjoy a clearer picture, with almost edge to edge clarity. Though it would be even clearer with a RTX 4090 of course. Also, the Pico 4 feels better on your head/face than the Quest 2 - but how much depends of what kind of modifications you have done to your Quest 2.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Peedee