Yet another update to DCS 2.8 Open Beta, but what about the stable?

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, rob10 said:

So how many people would you like ED to hire?  Reality is that this is a complex enough game with a really broad breadth (multiple planes AND multiple maps) and that's before you throw in user hardware differences, that short of having a public beta you're going to miss a pile of bugs because there are so many different combinations that even a 1,000 internal testers is going to miss a pile of them over 6 months (and that's a high cost to have that many).  Good luck getting that many volunteer testers who are going to be willing to strictly play with internal people for extended periods because they are the only ones with the version to play on (you aren't likely going to have enough with same interests, same availability times etc).  Your wish for this is never going to happen.

They could simply set the release windows to allow fair time for both versions instead of the game being an unstable buggy test version 80% of the time. Instead of putting out every new thing as a beta, delay it and do more internal testing so the beta doesn’t then have to run for months and months. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by SharpeXB

[ac5]

2 hours ago, ac5 said:

The release cadence isn’t fair to people who run the stable version. It seems 75% of the time the current version is the Beta, effectively shutting people out of MP. 

And this is true, also not considering multiplayer, to which I am not interested... 

So to be able to use Normandy 2.0, which I bought ages ago, the only option I have is switch to the open beta, if I don't want

to wait months on end..... Wish me luck! 

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

They could simply set the release windows to allow fair time for both versions instead of the game being an unstable buggy test version 80% of the time. Instead of putting out every new thing as a beta, delay it and do more internal testing so the beta doesn’t then have to run for months and months. 

Again, could not agree more.....

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, ac5 said:

So to be able to use Normandy 2.0, which I bought ages ago, the only option I have is switch to the open beta, if I don't want

to wait months on end..... Wish me luck! 

So you’re paying for a game which you can’t use. My guess is MT will take a year to debug. 

[rob10]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

They could simply set the release windows to allow fair time for both versions instead of the game being an unstable buggy test version 80% of the time. 

For me the OB is rarely buggy or unstable (especially unstable).  Sure there can be known issues, but rarely massively game stopping.  Sorry, but majority rules and the majority prefer OB for MP.  If they didn't, you'd have a bunch of stable MP servers.  Note that I didn't say EVERYONE wants OB, just that the MAJORITY.  If you want stable MP, set up a server and find that smaller number that are interested in flying on stable. 

[Baldrick33]

36 minutes ago, ac5 said:

So to be able to use Normandy 2.0, which I bought ages ago, the only option I have is switch to the open beta, if I don't want

to wait months on end..... Wish me luck!

You didn’t buy Normandy 2.0 ages ago, it was released into early access for purchase yesterday. If you don’t want to join early access you need to wait for it it be in full release.

The issue is that some content will be ready for full release before the openbeta is ready to become stable. The option would be multiple branches but that adds complexity. In the nicest possible way adding complexity to the release process is the last thing we want to see, we have enough issues with releases and license management now as this release testifies.

So the only option is to wait or join openbeta. Some time ago I installed stable in addition to openbeta as a fall back in case openbeta became unplayable, I haven’t used it thus far. I have had to mess around with editing command lines, manually change VR runtimes and install third party tools to make DCS work with VR motion reprojection. All these things would have been required with the stable version if any of the openbeta builds had been promoted. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Baldrick33

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, rob10 said:

For me the OB is rarely buggy or unstable (especially unstable).  Sure there can be known issues, but rarely massively game stopping. 

I don’t think the bug report section concurs with this assessment. MT in particular seems very buggy to the point that it has its own section 

1 hour ago, rob10 said:

Sorry, but majority rules and the majority prefer OB for MP.

That’s because ED has a lopsided release window that makes OB the default game. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, rob10 said:

So how many people would you like ED to hire?  Reality is that this is a complex enough game with a really broad breadth (multiple planes AND multiple maps) and that's before you throw in user hardware differences, that short of having a public beta you're going to miss a pile of bugs because there are so many different combinations that even a 1,000 internal testers is going to miss a pile of them over 6 months (and that's a high cost to have that many).  Good luck getting that many volunteer testers who are going to be willing to strictly play with internal people for extended periods because they are the only ones with the version to play on (you aren't likely going to have enough with same interests, same availability times etc).  Your wish for this is never going to happen.

Every game is complex and needs testing. DCS is no different. Yet I don’t know of any other that has this crazy situation. 
Here’s a question. If the majority is playing OB who are they testing the game for? Why even have a stable version? And having a multitude of players act as amateur free testers simply seems to flood the devs with poor quality reports and spin their wheels. Just look at the sections. It’s a lot of “my game doesn’t work” posts with no supporting information to make them usable. Plus the game has no functioning track replay so it’s not possible to accuracy document anything to ED. Not an ideal situation at all. 

[ac5]

Again, cold not agree more, SharpeXB.

And Baldrick33, I was also surprised, as I wanted to buy Normandy 2, which "was released into early access for purchase yesterday",

it stated that I had already a serial number.  In any case, to be able to use Normandy 2.0, the only option I have is switch to the open beta, if I don't want

to wait months on end..... I have backupped everything, but really hope that this does NOT makes a huge mess with the settings, sounds, mods, etc. which takes AGES to configure... 

[Mud]

You can easily hop between stable and open beta with SkateZilla's updater utility.
I assume it's only for the non-Steam users though.

No need to do massive changes, downloads or backups.
Though I strongly suggest to always have a backup of your control settings, logbook and missions of course.
 

Br,

Mud

[Baldrick33]

28 minutes ago, ac5 said:

Again, cold not agree more, SharpeXB.

And Baldrick33, I was also surprised, as I wanted to buy Normandy 2, which "was released into early access for purchase yesterday",

it stated that I had already a serial number.  In any case, to be able to use Normandy 2.0, the only option I have is switch to the open beta, if I don't want

to wait months on end..... I have backupped everything, but really hope that this does NOT makes a huge mess with the settings, sounds, mods, etc. which takes AGES to configure... 

Hopefully by the time Normandy 2 gets to stable they will have sorted out the purchasing bugs!

These forums are brilliant for getting help if you have any issues.

if you have enough disk space you can have both stable and openbeta installed.

[5ephir0th]

9 hours ago, ac5 said:

Again, cold not agree more, SharpeXB.

And Baldrick33, I was also surprised, as I wanted to buy Normandy 2, which "was released into early access for purchase yesterday",

it stated that I had already a serial number.  In any case, to be able to use Normandy 2.0, the only option I have is switch to the open beta, if I don't want

to wait months on end..... I have backupped everything, but really hope that this does NOT makes a huge mess with the settings, sounds, mods, etc. which takes AGES to configure... 

To be honest, its stated in red letters on the shop page of Normandy 2 terrain what version at least you need to run it, 2.8.4, Stable is still in 2.8.1

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, 5ephir0th said:

To be honest, its stated in red letters on the shop page of Normandy 2 terrain what version at least you need to run it, 2.8.4, Stable is still in 2.8.1

Certainly new products need to be tested. So they’re going to go through a beta test before release. But how is it that I can get new DLC for other games and play them online without participating in the beta? DCS is the only game I know of that uses it’s beta as the dominant public version.

[Dangerzone]

@ac5  Would you be happy if ED promoted the currently available Open Beta to stable today? If they did that, would that solve the issue you currently face?

Edited April 23, 2023 by Dangerzone

[ac5]

On 4/23/2023 at 3:55 PM, Baldrick33 said:

Hopefully by the time Normandy 2 gets to stable they will have sorted out the purchasing bugs!

These forums are brilliant for getting help if you have any issues.

if you have enough disk space you can have both stable and openbeta installed.

I have a 4 TB SSD.. But both installed? Yeah, sure... so each time one changes one setting in the OB one has to change it in the release... because they would have different folders in username/saved games / dcs and username/saved games / dcs-openbeta.. Let's make the life more complicated....

On 4/24/2023 at 1:55 AM, Dangerzone said:

@ac5  Would you be happy if ED promoted the currently available Open Beta to stable today? If they did that, would that solve the issue you currently face?

 

Sure I would be more than happy... That would solve not only the issue of Normandy 2, but many others too...

On 4/24/2023 at 1:14 AM, SharpeXB said:

Certainly new products need to be tested. So they’re going to go through a beta test before release. But how is it that I can get new DLC for other games and play them online without participating in the beta? DCS is the only game I know of that uses it’s beta as the dominant public version.

You said it.. Very true. DCS is the only game I know of that uses it’s beta as the dominant public version.

[Art-J]

Now you're really making desperate excuses to be angry at Open Beta for whatever personal reasons. Fine, it's your right to do so, but solving the situation is not as difficult as you pretend it is. Years ago, when I used to have both installed on my PC by the way (not anymore - using OB only nowadays), I just copied the whole Saved Games [...] folder content from one DCS to the other and it just worked. So much for the "complicated". Occasionally a couple of controls had to be re-assigned if OB had new aircraft functions compared to older stable, but you had to do exactly the same thing anyway when stable got updated, only a little later.

You're long enough on these forums to know that by doing the stable -> OB conversion via dcs_updater you keep all your controls, settings, missions, campaign progress etc. Conversion is just changing the build number, exactly as it would look if stable got updated today to 2.8.4. And if you don't like it, you can always revert back, I think it's the only flight sim currently on the market that allows us to do so.

You say you've made backups, and that's always a great idea. You've got nothing to loose then apart from some time for downloading about 50-60 gigs of data. Still preobably less time than you spend here arguing and making the problem bigger than it really is.

Granted, some of the backed-up custom mods from Saved Games probably won't work in 2.8.4 and you'll need to search for their updates, but again, it's the same thing when stable gets updated and breaks various mods.

[SharpeXB]

34 minutes ago, Art-J said:

You're long enough on these forums to know that by doing the stable -> OB conversion via dcs_updater you keep all your controls, settings, missions, campaign progress etc. Conversion is just changing the build number, exactly as it would look if stable got updated today to 2.8.4.

I’ve had this game for 11 years and I don’t know what this is. I wouldn’t bother with it either. You realize some people just want to play the game and not screw around with it constantly. 

37 minutes ago, Art-J said:

Now you're really making desperate excuses to be angry at Open Beta for whatever personal reasons.

It’s not a personal reason. It’s just pointing out that no other game does this, it’s not normal. 

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, ac5 said:

I have a 4 TB SSD.. But both installed? Yeah, sure... so each time one changes one setting in the OB one has to change it in the release... because they would have different folders in username/saved games / dcs and username/saved games / dcs-openbeta.. Let's make the life more complicated....

I just use a simple batch file to copy the files. I double click on an icon on my desktop and the settings are in sync.

In reality I have never had to resort to the stable version and always use openbeta but the stable is there just in case.

[Dangerzone]

3 hours ago, ac5 said:

Sure I would be more than happy... That would solve not only the issue of Normandy 2, but many others too...

I have great news for you! You do not need both installed! You can make the decision for ED yourself to virtually promote the current open beta to your current version by \simply running...

dcs_updater.exe update @openbeta  

Then you'll have exactly this. This does not create a second install. Just an update. Apart from having to type in those simple commands - what difference does it make to you if ED decides today to do this, or whether they decide to do this next week if you're happy and want the current Open Beta to be promoted to stable? 

Then when ED does 'catch up' for you, you can run...

 dcs_updater.exe update @release

...to reset DCS back to only update with future stable is released (as it will be the same version anyway - so it's just a reconfiguration of the update checks) if you prefer to stay on stable after that.

You don't need both installed. Those commands will just reconfigure your current install to either download using the openbeta server, or the stable server. Apart from that - your local copy of DCS will not know the difference.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Dangerzone

[Art-J]

13 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve had this game for 11 years and I don’t know what this is. I wouldn’t bother with it either. You realize some people just want to play the game and not screw around with it constantly. 

And that's perfectly fine. Just wanted to point out that if one considers trying out beta, there's no need to have a separate install, and/or there's no need to remove the stable and download the whole beta thing from scratch. As Danger explained above, it's more like updating the game to another version number with a single command and reduced download size.

As for the ED business model being normal or not, I agree with you it's not, but you're here long enough to know they don't really care much what anyone thinks of it and do things their way. So I'm just approaching it all from "bang for the buck" point of view. I used to play stable for years, then I used to have both installed side-by-side for a few years more, eventually I realized there was technically no point in keeping the stable, ditched it and kept the beta. And I don't even do the multiplayer so couldn't care less what version popular servers use. I say from experience that the playing vs. screwing-around-with-it ratio is comparable to my stable years.

As they say, "Latest stable is the last-but one Open Beta". Pushed down the throat whether it's really ready or not. "Good enough" rather than really polished. Frankly, both versions have the same metric crapton of bugs and long-overdue shortcomings, it's just some old bugs of the stable get fixed and replaced at the same time by some new bugs of the beta. Pick your poison! It's true stable might have less crash-to-desktop-grade bugs than beta, but otherwise, the rough around the edges quality of the product is in my opinion comparable in both cases. Well, OK, earlier access to new core features and modules is considered a major product advantage of beta for some players.

Yesterday I experienced my first CTD in I don't even remember how many months, so "stability" of beta is pretty much the same as in the stable. Caused by an outdated custom mod by the way, so I'd stumble upon it in either case once the stable goes 2.8.4. I just experienced it earlier.

[ac5]

Well, if as you say, "Latest stable is the last-but one Open Beta". Pushed down the throat whether it's really ready or not. "Good enough" rather than really polished"....

Why don't they publish that stable? It's been over 4 months since the last one.....  

That sentence confirm my point. If the latest stable is the last Open Beta, whether it's really ready or not and not polished, then why in this earth have two versions, other than use paying customers as beta-testers? By the way, many of those, myself included, not qualified to do so, as it has been pointed out in this very thread.

Rather not offer constantly discounts and more discounts and giving loads of stuff for free, and use those resources for proper developing and testing.   

Edited April 26, 2023 by ac5

[Raisuli]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:37 PM, Baldrick33 said:

I just use a simple batch file to copy the files. I double click on an icon on my desktop and the settings are in sync.

In reality I have never had to resort to the stable version and always use openbeta but the stable is there just in case.

I deleted stable ages ago.  Complete waste of drive space.

Personally I've never seen a bug I couldn't ignore.  There are hangers full of aircraft to fly if one of them has a lose turbine blade, or maintenance needs to replace a  carb.  There's a virtually unlimited cornucopia of options, and at no point in the last however many years I've played this have I ever been even inconvenienced by the lack of polish.

At one time I used to point out the bugs, but Wags cured me of that.  Less stressful to park the problem and fly something else for a while.  Sometimes I do that even when there wasn't a problem to park!

YMMV, of course.  IDSFES.

[SharpeXB]

It’s amazing to see how people acquiesce to playing a bugged game.

[Raisuli]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s amazing to see how people acquiesce to playing a bugged game.

I've never seen a piece of software that doesn't have bugs*, including the operating system people acquiesce to use in order to play DCS given you can't run it on any of the other bugged operating systems.  Windows is worse than most, in fact, and has been since at least version 2.0 which is the first version I wrote code for.

You can hold your breath and wait for the bug free game, which will never happen, or you can enjoy what's available.  The best news of all is that is entirely your choice to make.

* 'Hello World', which I originally wrote back when computers took up one building and the air conditioner needed to cool them the larger building next door, is not bugged.  It also doesn't really do anything.  Knew I should have copyrighted that code! 

[SharpeXB]

Just now, Raisuli said:

I've never seen a piece of software that doesn't have bugs*, including the operating system people acquiesce to use in order to play DCS given you can't run it on any of the other bugged operating systems.  Windows is worse than most, in fact, and has been since at least version 2.0 which is the first version I wrote code for.

You can hold your breath and wait for the bug free game, which will never happen, or you can enjoy what's available.  The best news of all is that is entirely your choice to make.

* 'Hello World', which I originally wrote back when computers took up one building and the air conditioner needed to cool them the larger building next door, is not bugged.  It also doesn't really do anything.  Knew I should have copyrighted that code! 

Yeah but if the majority of players are running the OB why have two versions? What’s the point? Just have one buggy version for everyone. 

[erniedaoage]

Because with the introduction of new features sometimes old features get broken. Sometimes it takes a lot of open beta updates to adress some issues. And a lot of people are complaining about it. Honestly i don't care for the F16 and F18 at all, but i don't wanna see the warzone in the forum when some features get broken and it takes 8 weeks to fix them.  With the stable version there is at least a version people can enjoy with the features they got sofar. 

And honestly we all don't know what all the SP people are using, all we know is that there are a lot more OB servers than stable ones. So the majority of the DCS online community decided to use the open beta. And i bet there are a lot of squadrons out there who still use the stable version for their flight nights.