New Mirage 2000 engine sound

[PLUTON]

Hi there
I would like to know what you think of the new engine sound of the 2000!
Personally, I live a few kilometers from the Luxeuil base (Air Base 116 LUXEUIL ST SAUVEUR) in the east of France and I can tell you that the sound of the (exterior) engines of the Mirage 2000 does not sound like that at all because I hear them and see taxiler and take off on the spot.
for the interior sound I just used the air force videos because I've never been in a 2000.
and when the 2000 starts the sound no longer matches the real plane.
I don't know if the new sounds were created after Razbam or by ED
But in my humble opinion it is fake, too bad reading the update I was hoping for a finally real sound for our beautiful Mirage 2000.
Maybe that will be for another time!

[Kercheiz]

Hi there, Razbam here.

Please stay constructive. "But in my humble opinion it is fake" is rude. We are open to critics if argumented, you could, for instance, document differences in pitch, tone, sound characteristics, with examples, etc... in a constructive way.

Engine sound has been designed as a model, and not a simple set of samples for startup sequence, idle, cutoff... It generates the sound instead of playing it. This allows it being perfectly responsive to different startup sequences, failures, etc... On the other hand, recreating the exact sound is more difficult, and requires careful adjustment of every sound layer and parameters. It can certainly still be improved, but we have SMEs (pilots, ground crew) that liked it.

Please find attached a WIP improved version. What do you think of it compared to your experience?

 

[Kerosene]

Hello Razbam

Thanks again for the fantastic job you did on the Mirage 2000.

I have often heard the M53-P2 professionally on the ground and find that the new sounds do not produce enough high frequencies.

In the latest update, the high-pitched whistle of this engine is missing.

In the video you just posted the sound is closer to the real rendering than in the current version.

In any case, thank you for the work you produce for our greatest pleasure.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Kerosene

[LucShep]

On 12/19/2022 at 1:27 PM, Kercheiz said:

Hi there, Razbam here.

Please stay constructive. "But in my humble opinion it is fake" is rude. We are open to critics if argumented, you could, for instance, document differences in pitch, tone, sound characteristics, with examples, etc... in a constructive way.

Engine sound has been designed as a model, and not a simple set of samples for startup sequence, idle, cutoff... It generates the sound instead of playing it. This allows it being perfectly responsive to different startup sequences, failures, etc... On the other hand, recreating the exact sound is more difficult, and requires careful adjustment of every sound layer and parameters. It can certainly still be improved, but we have SMEs (pilots, ground crew) that liked it.

Please find attached a WIP improved version. What do you think of it compared to your experience?

 

Hello Razbam,
Pardon the following wall of text...

I admire the attention to detail and relevance given to the "real thing" fidelity - vital for any top module for DCS.
But, with all due respect, I think I'm not alone feeling that some criticism is applicable to your work with the sounds.

Most of all, I wish Razbam gave more prevalence to the internal "in cockpit" sounds instead - this is where we spend 99% of the time in your planes (not outside of it).

I've got a bunch of DCS modules, and trialed pretty much every one out there. I find the Mirage 2000C and the MiG-19 as some of the worst sound design among all DCS modules - again, no disrespect intended.
I can't hear what the engine (and throttle/thrust) is doing, I can only hear wind sound. For the few things I can listen, I don't get any stereo-repartition for higher quality in the audio (from within the samples, not from from effect triggers). Actually, I can't understand the profusion of mono-channel samples after looking into the sound files (when stereo is widely supported?). Or the utterly mutted/muffled sounds, when the low-pass filters are supposed to do that work by the sound-engine of DCS itself, more so when selecting the "Hear like in helmet" option of the game.

As it is, and as much as I love the M-2000C, I'm put off of it after flying just a few minutes. I feel... nothing. And go back again to other module.
All in all, the immersion and feedback I get from sound when "driving" the aircraft is pretty much nule, no matter what version or revision of sounds you've done so far in the M-2000C.

You may say "but that's how it is IRL!", though I'd find it discussible. The thing is, without a "seat-of-the-pants" (not being in the real aircraft) by being restricted to visuals and audio, some compromises are necessary, to balance and compensate, for immersion/pleasure/feedback during gameplay. And here I think other 3rd party's developers, as well as ED, interpret this far better.

Take as mere "good" examples the F-16C, F-14A/B, F/A-18C, A-10C or even the FC3 modules. Loads of audio feedback, truly immersive, a delight to the ears. These have stellar work in the sound department and, perhaps, a benchmark that you should pick and base on, to produce your "in-cockpit" sounds (at least for this module).
People give a lot of value to "eye-candy", but "ear-candy" is just as important in a simulation.  

Please take this as constructive criticism. 
I am (or rather, was) a sound-designer for almost twenty years (work in racing-simulation games, and a few side projects in military/flight sim mods), these days merely as a side hobby. I know the ins and outs of the craft, and I know it's hard and complex. I also know (past lessons) that if customers criticize, it's also a sign that they care.

Cheers!  

Edited December 21, 2022 by LucShep
spelling(?)

[Kercheiz]

2 hours ago, LucShep said:

Hello Razbam,
Pardon the following wall of text...

....

Please take this as constructive criticism. 
I am (or rather, was) a sound-designer for almost twenty years (work in racing-simulation games, and a few side projects in military/flight sim mods), these days merely as a side hobby. I know the ins and outs of the craft, and I know it's hard and complex. I also know (past lessons) that if customers criticize, it's also a sign that they care.

Cheers!  

 

Hi,

No offense taken, your message is detailed and constructive!

Yes, IRL you barely hear the engine inside. I agree that there are pro and cons for making the engine more audible from the cockpit. And there are actually pro and con users regarding this, the beta testers that helped us adjusting levels actually liked them... and were maybe not representative of the full user base. And on the other hand we had ground crew feedback asking us to shift the whirl by a halftone as it wasn't matching... everyone tends to focus on a different detail

And yes we have no professional sound designer in house!

The big work done here was coding an "engine sound engine". I agree there is still some work to be done in samples and levels, you can hear in the video above some upcoming changes.

Cheers!

[Kercheiz]

I forgot to add, that internal sounds you mention were added, precisely because engine wasn't audible enough from inside, and we have no control over canopy closed muffling (which is a DCS core setting). There is still some levels work to be done.

[Madone]

TBH I was also a bit disappointed by the sample quality but the video you posted is a clear improvement! I've been around M2000's on base and I conccur that I didn't recognize the characteristic high pitched whistling at the inlets. I'm impressed by the sound engine emulation and I'm sure some enhancements will make it sound accurate. The interior sound doesn't seem right but I disagree on the lack of engine feedback, the levels are IMO ok and when your hand is on the throttle you get a feel for it. Also, cockpits are mostly well insulated and sound propagation acts a bit against it so it's clearly not a prominent sound IMO. I take my experience riding in military helos to say that.
Btw while idling in exterior view from the back, there's a bassy echo that I think shouldn't be there, it sounds almost like the engine echo you get inside the cockpit when you're cruising.

Really looking toward the next update.

[kotor633]

Hi,
Personally, I think the Harrier would have deserved a revised sound engine first than the Mirage...

[Kercheiz]

On 12/20/2022 at 3:41 PM, LucShep said:

Hello Razbam,

....
I can't hear what the engine (and throttle/thrust) is doing, I can only hear wind sound. For the few things I can listen, I don't get any stereo-repartition for higher quality in the audio (from within the samples, not from from effect triggers). Actually, I can't understand the profusion of mono-channel samples after looking into the sound files (when stereo is widely supported?).

....

Cheers!  

 

The use of mono sounds actually comes from my understanding on the DCS sound engine, it's supposed to be a 3D sound engine that take 3D point sound sources and does generate stereo/multichannel from it. These engines do anyway downsample any stereo sample to mono and then generate all the multichannel levels/eq/phase procedurally from 3D orientation.

Maybe it's not the case and I assumed too much from the sound engine.

[Stanlesuper]

Hi all, hi Razbam,

 

Many thanks for all the good works you did on this module.

I think you are on the good way with the short video of WIP you share us ! Promising...

I felt disappointed with the last sound update like many users. The feeling of lake of energy, "dry" and "dense blast" sound of fighter jets is missing.

For me, the new "engine sound engine" is a good thing, and I can deal with it it editing "thrust" "afterburner" and "compressor flow 50". 

I shared a personal sound mod in user files edited on 31/12/2022 and called Easy M-2000C sound mod. I invite you to test it.

Please keep us informed with last works in progress, we love this ! I think we can help with our sensitivity and intuitive process.
 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Stanlesuper

[PLUTON]

Hello Stanlesuper,
I did not find your sound mod call (Easy M-2000C sound mod)
of 31/12/22 in the user file!
did you remove it?

[Stanlesuper]

1 hour ago, PLUTON said:

Hello Stanlesuper,
I did not find your sound mod call (Easy M-2000C sound mod)
of 31/12/22 in the user file!
did you remove it?

Ah?

In user files > sound > unit > M-2000C, you can find 7 posts. For the moment, it's the 6th.

Or, try this direct link

 https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/fr/files/3328008/

[PLUTON]

I listened to quite a lot but the __MACOSX file my pc does not want to read it!
you know why ?

I listened to quite a lot but the __MACOSX file my pc does not want to read it!
you know why ?
And what is the .DS_Store file?

[Stanlesuper]

41 minutes ago, PLUTON said:

I listened to quite a lot but the __MACOSX file my pc does not want to read it!
you know why ?

I listened to quite a lot but the __MACOSX file my pc does not want to read it!
you know why ?
And what is the .DS_Store file?

Those files are created by default, probably because I used a mac to edit de tracks, this is not helpful at all. 

 

Did you try those samples in game ?

 

[PLUTON]

Ha ok thanks for the info
by the way why we can no longer use the sounds from before such as (Eco19)?

for instance

[PLUTON]

I hope that the next update will bring a good correction of the sound of the 2000 because for the moment I have put it aside because the immersion is so broken because for me it is one of the best modules

[Kercheiz]

Check the above video for upcoming exterior sound.

For interior sound, the above change will be audible. But don't expect a loud whirl from inside in-flight. Engine is barely audible inside in the real thing. We made it audible to compensate the lack of acceleration/vibration/feeling in a desk chair.

Returns have been so far very positive (including from actual ground and air crew) so it's difficult to please everyone. Levels are really easy to mod if you want to make it more audible from inside (sdef files). Don't hesitate to share your mods, they may suit other people.

It would be definitely more easy to suit everyone if there was an "engine" gain slider in the options.

[PLUTON]

Thanks for the explanation, I'll wait for the update to see exactly what happens.
On the other hand I tried your files and I heard no change compared to those of now!
what did i do wrong?

[Stanlesuper]

Simply replace the files in your respective Mods and Coremods folders. Not in saved game, but eagle dynamics..

[PLUTON]

Ok it's done .
I listened to the interior sound which sounds good,
on the other hand is it normal that this noise which sounds like in the real plane always remains the same sound when you put the throttle lever at idle?
Otherwise it looks awesome.
We are getting closer, we are getting closer. Thank you for taking care of this great module which is the 2000

[Kercheiz]

17 minutes ago, PLUTON said:

Ok it's done .
I listened to the interior sound which sounds good,
on the other hand is it normal that this noise which sounds like in the real plane always remains the same sound when you put the throttle lever at idle?
Otherwise it looks awesome.
We are getting closer, we are getting closer. Thank you for taking care of this great module which is the 2000

How do you know it "sounds like in the real plane" if you only experienced it by living a few kilometers from an airbase?

You like the mod by Stanlesuper, which is a good thing. What user expect regarding interior sound is definitely a very subjective thing, and yes some sound adjustments may have more punch, be more pleasing, more immersive etc...

But please, don't write "it sounds like in the real plane" vs "it doesn't sound at all like in the real plane", if your are not a SME. Only "I like it much better".

And if you are a SME (pilot, ground crew...) just contact us in PM.

[PLUTON]

ok but when I said it sounds like in the real plane it was according to the videos of the French air force (the sound that we hear in the cockpit on video) and alas no I am not a proffesional, just a military aviation addict.
Keep up your great work, we like it
Thanks

[PLUTON]

Please watch this video
thank you in advance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V98PNZ_bwg&ab_channel=RTL

or this one

 

 

[myHelljumper]

This is sound from a gopro, it can't be used as a reference everything that is happening in a fighter aircraft cockpit.

[PLUTON]

I believe you.
Just a question out of curiosity, what would a real mirage 2000 pilot say?
by hearing the soundtrack of these videos?