No Radar warning, no radar guidance, no radar SAMs?

[sobek]

After reading this thread, I am eagerly awaiting the AH-64A module so we can go through all of this all over again about it's lack of flares or air-to-air missiles. :D

 

The 64A has no flares?!?!?

[Feuerfalke]

The 64A has no flares?!?!?

 

As you noted, if you pack chaff, you loose flares.

 

 

If you have 100 starters for countermeasures, fill half of it with chaff and the other half with flares, you probably run out of flares much faster than in DCS.

 

 

That doesn't mean the Apache doesn't have any, but you will have to consider your choice, given the limited capacity.

[ZaltysZ]

But I'm also looking forward to the Apache-module. But not to start discussions, but to be able to detect enemy radar. :D

 

And probably there will be not much use from RWR :D. I am waiting for Apache too, but for different reason. I am hoping it will be possible to have human pilot and human weapon officer at the same time in the same Apache. If so, I will buy 2 DVDs.

[muamshai]

geogob has covered all aspects of this thread quite nicely.

[AlphaOneSix]

No production AH-64A in U.S. Army service ever carried flares. Just 30 chaff. At the time, the "Black Hole" IR suppressors and ALQ-114 were determined to be sufficient countermeasures. Also, since the Apache is primarily a night fighter, flares could be counter-productive. Besides, you can't lock up something (with IR MANPADS) that you can't see.

[Mugatu]

Is this turning into the R-27EA Su-27 saga of Black Shark :)

 

Anyway after my online experiences in the KA-50 I pity their drivers going against any dual crew chopper with a turreted mounted cannon. I'm yet to be able to lock up another KA-50 at speed, yaw on to him and shoot while moving forward at speed, specially with the dodgy AFCS :) Don't even mention the turn to target :(

Wouldn't be worried about radar guided SAMs you'll be dodging 30mm rounds!!

 

Post tracks here if anyone can ...

 

ps Love the sim though!!

[Feuerfalke]

And probably there will be not much use from RWR :D. I am waiting for Apache too, but for different reason. I am hoping it will be possible to have human pilot and human weapon officer at the same time in the same Apache. If so, I will buy 2 DVDs.

 

 

+1 :thumbup:

[muamshai]

^I think my weapons officer will be cursing at me if I will bail out without a slightest hint.

Did this naughty thing a few times in Armed Assault when my Blackhawk was full of soldiers :D

[Feuerfalke]

^I think my weapons officer will be cursing at me if I will bail out without a slightest hint.

Did this naughty thing a few times in Armed Assault when my Blackhawk was full of soldiers :D

 

If you are used to bail out in ArmA and BF, I bet you will find out some nasty surprises in DCS: Apache. Besides that, the gunner will be able to fly the helo from his seat.

 

So, if you bail out of an Apache, the only thing your WO might curse you for, is the red color on the windows... :P

[AlphaOneSix]

^I think my weapons officer will be cursing at me if I will bail out without a slightest hint.

 

He'll get the last laugh as he flies home alone since you won't be wearing a parachute.

[GGTharos]

- in contrast to some statements here

 

In contrast to your inability to read what has indeed been said in the rest of these forums, all of this has already been mentioned. By people who actually maintained and flew the things.

 

 

So taking ED modeling policy into consideration DCS: Apache-A should have Stingers!

 

Absolutely not.

 

- I cannot agree that Apache-A was true day or night gunship.

 

Too bad the military doesn't agree with you. Perhaps you should go edumacate them? ;)

[GGTharos]

1. So tell this to guys who wrote opposite things earlier.

 

Which guys? The guys who said Apaches were never really meant to be equipped with ATAS, the very same system that isn't deployed with them? ;)

 

2. Absolutely so!

 

No, period, end of story.

 

3. I think they educated themselves 15 years ago and thus created AH-64D. So its now high time to educate you, trainee! :megalol:

 

... which is actually getting some upgrades for better night-flying. Perhaps you should really figure out what you're talking about. I'm not ever sure there's a radar dome for every longbow out there these days ;)

[DarkWanderer]

Rokosowsky, leave him. He has confused USAF and IDDQD abbreviations again...

 

The reasons for decision whether to model an aicraft feature or not lie not only in presense of that feature in real thing, but on possibility to gather info on it too. There just was no info on Ka-50's Igla usage (HUD indication, etc) - and considering, that A2A weapon usage on Ka-50/Mi-28 seems to be in the same state as for AH-64 - we're unlikely to get it too.

[geogob]

I'm just going to go ahead and highlight some parts and add a few comments.... observation to follow.

 

- in contrast to some statements here Apache-A was fully tested [not implemented] with air-to-air missiles in 1987-88 period. Firstly AIM-9H Sidewinder was fired from AH-64A but trials showed this missile easily expose gunship's position due to enormous heat and smoke emission during launch. So the better solution was introducing AIM-28 ATAS missiles (air-to-air FIM-92 Stinger variant). Their tests were successful but Army refused to agree on such modernization. However this decision was made only because no other potential enemy created gunship armed with A2A missiles after fall of the USSR (initially Ka-50 and Mi-28A projects had A2A capability). So from pure technical point of view US Army could have equipped every Apache-A with four AIM-28 ATAS easily and quickly if circumstances had arisen [and if the required system would have entered mass production, which they didn't]. Later Longbow [another different aicraft] modernization took place and this problem naturally disappeared. So taking ED modeling policy into consideration DCS: Apache-A should have Stingers! [WTF?]

 

I think you like contradicting yourself. First you state that no AA system were every fully developped nor implemented on the AH-64A, then you conclude that DCS: Apache-A should have AA systems. So. which one is it? Do they have the AA missile systems or do they not? If they don't, it doesn't get into the simulator, if they do, it gets in. You said they don't, then you say they should be in the simulator. I think you don't know what a simulator is. You do no what you want it to be though.

 

But, most importantly, what does all this about the AH-64 have to do with the Ka-50 ECM systems? How about this. If you want to start a new discussion, start a new thread. Don't forget the forum search function first. You might be shocked to see what you find there!

[AlphaOneSix]

But, most importantly, what does all this about the AH-64 have to do with the Ka-50 ECM systems? How about this. If you want to start a new discussion, start a new thread.

 

That's my fault. I apologize. I promise I'll hush after this one last response. ;)

 

Hey maybe a mod will split this into two threads! (I'm always looking for technical solutions to social problems. :P )

 

So from pure technical point of view US Army could have equipped every Apache-A with four AIM-28 ATAS easily and quickly if circumstances had arisen.

 

Easily? What's your version of "easy"? I spent many years working on Apaches, and putting Stingers on them would have been lots of things, but "easy" wasn't one of them. ATAS was mounted on the OH-58A/C aircraft, and no thought was ever given to putting them on Apaches. Ever. Dowload a copy of the AH-64A Operator's Manual and see how many times it mentions "ATAS" or "Stinger". I'll give you a hint. It ain't in there. There's a reason for that.

 

It is true Apache-A crews rarely used chaff or flares because they mostly relied on very low altitude flights and other ECM systems to overcome enemy air defense.

 

Chaff were routinely carried. Flares were never, ever carried. And by never I don't meant sometimes or rarely. I mean the cockpit switch says "chaff", not "chaff/flares". Just because it's the same dispenser doesn't mean they carried both. In fact... The general purpose dispenser M-130 (fig 4-20) consists of a dispenser control panel located on the right of the pilot instrument panel (fig 2-9), a dispenser assembly, a payload module assembly, and an electronic module to dispense M-1 Chaff. It provides effective survival countermeasures against radar guided weapons systems. The dispenser subsystem has the capability of dispensing 30 chaff cartridges. That's right out of the Operator's Manual. I'd say that's pretty definitive. Oh, and this... The countermeasures control panels (fig 4-20), located on the right side of the pilot instrument panel, consist of the radar/infrared countermeasures panel, the chaff dispenser panel and the radar signal detector control panel. The flare panel is not used.

 

look at Apache-A crashes in Albania (1999).

 

I'm very aware of both of those crashes. One crash was caused by settling with power. Thankfully, it was a relatively short fall and both pilots walked away with relatively minor injuries. The other was caused by an erroneous, uncommanded flight control input from the BUCS during NOE flight, causing the aircraft to enter a severe roll, from which the crew was unable ot recover before impacting the ground. Both pilots were killed. Both incidents occured at night, but neither had anything to do with the night-flying capabilities of the aircraft.

[GGTharos]

Rokosowsky, you have the next two posts your make to reconsider your attitude.

 

AlphaOneSix's credentials are verified.

 

It appears that you haven't been equipped with an RWR either, because it would be screaming by now. ;)

Edited January 20, 2009 by GGTharos

[AlphaOneSix]

Do you really think this crash was not connected with mediocre AH-64A night flying capabilities? Do you really try to sell me such BS? Other readers should know Apache-A had weak navigation equipment to fly at night.

 

Wow, man. Just wow. What do night flying capablities have to do with mechanical failure and settling with power? The rest of you response is just so amazing that I realize now how you are completely incapable of listening to anything anyone else says if they don't agree with you. I will go ahead and let this thread ride. I'm pretty sure you're the only one reading this thread that thinks you're right.

 

Toodles.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Roko you are doing new friends very fast.

 

You had spent one of your post reconsidering nothing.

 

Awaiting the next post. This could be funny.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Thanks.

[DTWD]

Dowload a copy of the AH-64A Operator's Manual and see how many times it mentions "ATAS" or "Stinger". I'll give you a hint. It ain't in there. There's a reason for that.

 

Where do I get that? :)

 

Also I think your going to feel really silly!

 

All that working on the Apache has taught you nothing!

 

Here I found this german documentry showing the advanced AA capabilities of the Apache:

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EqHS1gyknms

 

Oh and similarities of the pilots to Nicholas Cage and Tommy Lee Jones are just your imagination :megalol:

[DTWD]

Why must you keep pushing?

[uhoh7]

Seems to me, thanks to Rokosowsky, we have a pretty interesting thread, aside from all the ruffled feathers. The guy is never likely to make it in the diplomatic corps, hehe, but there's substance in his posts.

 

Why take offense? He's just one of those guys who can't say it nice. There's plenty of them, but few have interesting arguments.

[arneh]

Dowload a copy of the AH-64A Operator's Manual...

Where do I get that? :)

 

The AH-64A operator's manual is online here.

 

Edited January 20, 2009 by arneh

[Esac_mirmidon]

Knowledge is not enough. Kindness is a great quality. Both of them in the same person makes great forum members.

[haigotron]

i guess every forum has to have one... :(