Attacking S-300 & SA-15

[MTM]

I’ve been practicing this for a few weeks and have had mixed results at best, so I’d love to hear how others would do it…

Here’s the scenario- there’s an S-300 site protected by multiple SA-15. The target is the Flap Lid radar. You’ve got a single F-16. No wingmen or any other type of support. I realize that’s not realistic, I just want to see if it can be done consistently. 
 

What weapons and tactics would you use? 
 

I’ve tried low level approach and fire HARMs at about 6-7 miles in Pre-Briefed mode at a steerpoint that I put right on the Flap Lid. At best I get 50% success. Probably less TBH. Tried the same with JDAMs and I can take out the radar almost every time, but I have to get closer, which means the SA-15 usually takes me out before I escape. Also tried with JSOWs, which lets me stay barely outside of the SA-15’s range, but the JSOWs always get shot down. Anyone have better luck with the S-300/SA-15 combination?

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, MTM said:

I’ve been practicing this for a few weeks and have had mixed results at best, so I’d love to hear how others would do it…

Here’s the scenario- there’s an S-300 site protected by multiple SA-15. The target is the Flap Lid radar. You’ve got a single F-16.

Leave and go home. That's the only realistic option here. A S-300 with backup should be pretty much invincible to a single plane by design.

Best bet if you want to try anyway is probably JDAM since they can't be shot down. Use the F-16's acceleration to lob them as far as possible and also to outrun missiles fired on you by getting into cover. Although note that the F-16 will hit its max speed at low altitude very quickly. There is no penalty in DCS for exceeding this speed, but in real life you wouldn't want to go over it.

[Lace]

SA-15 has a maximum range of 6nm and 15,000ft, so relatively easy to stay out of it's MEZ and ignore.  The problem will be if you are forced lower when engaged defensive against the SA-10.

As you pointed out, a single ship against this target is completely unrealistic.  My tactic against a single SA-15 would be a low altitude ripple launch of two AGM-65s.  One of which usually gets through.  You don't say how many Gauntlets there are, or how tightly packed.  Do you need to kill them all to reach the Grumble, or can you take out one or two to punch a hole?

Assuming make a gap big enough to give you some manoeuvring room against the SA-10 my tactic then (since the AI is pretty dumb in DCS) would be to sit at the edge of the MEZ and play with it.  Bring ECM and lots of fuel and repeatedly pop-up, wait for a couple of launches and then duck behind cover.  Extend, rinse and repeat.  Once the SA-10 site is out of missiles, you could cruise up and gun the Flap Lid if you wanted, but a HARM or Maverick would be safer.  Depending on how big the site is, you may need to RTB to re-arm and refuel before it is safe to press the attack.

Realistically though, as Exorcet said above, stay home, and wait until you can allocate sufficient resources to do the job properly.

 

[Dragon1-1]

Yup, IRL nobody flies DEAD missions single-ship. Teamwork is essential in those, particularly against modern SAMs. The proper setup for such a site is a 4-ship loaded with as many HARMs as you can spare to perform a saturation attack on the site, and then a 2-ship followup with CBUs to destroy the site. You might get away with a 2-ship, each loaded with 4 HARMs, but then you won't have much gas to work with and no way to follow up.

Alternatively, use terrain. If the SAM site is set up incompetently, it might have a hill close enough to toss a bomb over it. Basically, find the site with the TGP from a safe range, markpoint it, and then use terrain masking to get close enough to loft a bunch of CBUs. However, keep in mind that any realistic site of that sort would have at least one of the SA-15s on top of that hill. This also depends on there being such a hill in first place.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Dragon1-1

[itn]

8 hours ago, MTM said:

I’ve been practicing this for a few weeks and have had mixed results at best, so I’d love to hear how others would do it…

Here’s the scenario- there’s an S-300 site protected by multiple SA-15. The target is the Flap Lid radar. You’ve got a single F-16. No wingmen or any other type of support. I realize that’s not realistic, I just want to see if it can be done consistently. 
 

What weapons and tactics would you use?

In this unrealistic scenario I might employ a pro gamer move including plenty of speed and altitude, ECM and 2xGBU-38. You can even load 2xAIM-120 and 2x370 so it's not completely impractical in DCS, no matter how unrealistic.

And it's all very dependent on the scenario, like others pointed above.

[Whiskey11]

8 hours ago, MTM said:

I’ve been practicing this for a few weeks and have had mixed results at best, so I’d love to hear how others would do it…

Here’s the scenario- there’s an S-300 site protected by multiple SA-15. The target is the Flap Lid radar. You’ve got a single F-16. No wingmen or any other type of support. I realize that’s not realistic, I just want to see if it can be done consistently. 
 

What weapons and tactics would you use? 
 

I’ve tried low level approach and fire HARMs at about 6-7 miles in Pre-Briefed mode at a steerpoint that I put right on the Flap Lid. At best I get 50% success. Probably less TBH. Tried the same with JDAMs and I can take out the radar almost every time, but I have to get closer, which means the SA-15 usually takes me out before I escape. Also tried with JSOWs, which lets me stay barely outside of the SA-15’s range, but the JSOWs always get shot down. Anyone have better luck with the S-300/SA-15 combination?

The SA-10 has a blindspot below 50 feet AGL relative to the height of the Flap Lid radar.  Low, nap of the earth run ins with a popup attack around 10nmi with CBU-105's will nearly always guarantee an SA-10 kill and survival of the Viper.

Doing it right:

1.)   Find the SA-10 on the TGP using the HTS
2.)  Create a mark point for it 
3.)  Set the mark point as the waypoint 
4.)  Run in with TGP up, CBU-105's warmed up. 
5.)  Around 12-10nmi (depending on terrain) start a 25 degree pop up attack
6.)  Point track the Flap Lid when you can see the base of it
7.)  Release when in zone, turn and burn for the ground
7.)  Exit the threat area low and fast

This is so boringly effective, especially with terrain masking, that it's almost the least fun way to do it.  Even with SA-15's defending the site, it's VERY consistent.  It even works against the High Digit SAM Mod and S-300 Pack's various S-300's and S-400's.  It works over water as well.  It basically always works.

If the SA-15's are more.... aggressively placed, you may have to blaze a trail in to the SA-10 by taking them out FIRST.  Once you are used to these pop up attacks using the CBU-105, the SA-10 and SA-5 become some of the easiest to kill SAM sites... well... they are all easy to kill this way, but the shorter range stuff ends up being VERY spicy because of how quickly the missiles get to you relative to the longer range SAMs.

I've attached a Tacview of this tactic being used on TWO nearly co-located SA-10 sites during a Liberation Campaign.  Enjoy!

Liberation2xSA10Kill.acmi

Edited December 29, 2022 by Whiskey11

[=617= Evil]

@MTM, @Whiskey11 Laid out a fantastic way to do it. (Awesome track, btw) CBU-105s are awesome in the Viper, but as he said be careful of the shorter range SAMs and doing low level approaches are fun and very effective, but if you haven't built the scenario yourself, be very cautious at low altitude. A single MANPAD will ruin your whole day no matter how fast you're going. Set up your slap switch to dump a bunch of flares really quickly, slap the throttle to idle, and pray if you see a launch.

And someone else mentioned this as well, but rippling off Mavericks is usually a decent counter for SA15s. 

Either way, just look at this scenario as a way to hone your Weasel/DEAD skills. This is not realistic, obviously, so don't get too frustrated if it's tough. The SA-10 is one of the most terrifying SAM systems in the world for a reason, and short range SAMs will absolutely eat your lunch if they catch you low and close, purely because of how fast they are. The person who pointed out that this would be a 6-8 ship mission IRL is spot on.

But if you can get the SA10 out of the fight, the SA15s are just fish in a barrel given their short range. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by =617= Evil

[MTM]

Appreciate the suggestions and great info! I’ll try this out! Higher speed, switch out JDAMs for -105s, and release at ~10nm instead of 6-7 like I had been.

[BuzzU]

On 12/29/2022 at 8:13 AM, MTM said:

Appreciate the suggestions and great info! I’ll try this out! Higher speed, switch out JDAMs for -105s, and release at ~10nm instead of 6-7 like I had been.

Don't forget the best suggestion. Go home.

[MTM]

7 minutes ago, BuzzU said:

Don't forget the best suggestion. Go home.

Where’s the fun in that? 

[BuzzU]

Depends on what you call fun.

[Appleonastick]

If there's a mountain range, stay out of the SA-15 zone and let the SA-10 fire on you and lose radar lock by going behind a mountain.
Do this till the SA-10 missiles are depleted.
Climb to 20.000ft.
Take out the SA-10 radars and SA-15. 
Go home.

[Whiskey11]

10 hours ago, BuzzU said:

Depends on what you call fun.

DEAD is the best job to have in the Viper!  :P. Only reason I fly it!

 

No reason to do SEAD anymore when you can DEAD that site into oblivion!

[Lee1]

Manoever is always a good way to deplete a SAM's ebergy. Once the motor has burned our, every deflection of the control surfaces to follow you bleeds energy. Up, down, left, right all cause energy loss. I have defeated SAMs this way on many occasion. Once your airspeed is more than theirs, job done. AS has been said, no good for really close ones though but staying just inside their envelope and tempting them to shoot at you until they are out of missiles is a good SEAD or even DEAD trick. There is a very good tutorial on this by either Growling Sidewinder or Spudknocker IIRC.

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Lee1
spellingz

[Bunny Clark]

Whiskey11's solution above is an excellent option, and probably the easiest and least time consuming way to do this. You can do it with JDAMs too if you have an accurate enough target point, though I don't think we have the official implementation of loft deliveries yet in the Viper, which will really help making longer range lofting attacks with JDAMs. This method can be less effective (i.e. deadly) if there are more low-altitude air defenses along the run-in approach path. If there is fighter cover, it can be very effective as the fighters may not detect you inbound, and then hopefully by the time they know you're there you've dropped and are on your way out at high speed. 

Another completely unrealistic option is to dance around the edge of the SA-10 WEZ, goading it into shooting low pK missiles at you, defeating them by turning cold, and repeating that until all the launchers are out of missiles. Then fly in above the SA-15 WEZ and drop JDAMs or CBU-105s with impunity. This is great if there's a bunch of low altitude air defenses, but won't work as well if there are additional long range SAM sites around, or if the enemy has fighter cover. 

[MTM]

It’s been great reading all the input and suggestions from everyone! Lot of good information being shared!

I’ve tried it several different ways and Whiskey11’s method seems to give the best results. As he said, it works pretty much every time. 

[Spirale]

9 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

Whiskey11's solution above is an excellent option, and probably the easiest and least time consuming way to do this. You can do it with JDAMs too if you have an accurate enough target point, though I don't think we have the official implementation of loft deliveries yet in the Viper, which will really help making longer range lofting attacks with JDAMs. This method can be less effective (i.e. deadly) if there are more low-altitude air defenses along the run-in approach path. If there is fighter cover, it can be very effective as the fighters may not detect you inbound, and then hopefully by the time they know you're there you've dropped and are on your way out at high speed. 

Another completely unrealistic option is to dance around the edge of the SA-10 WEZ, goading it into shooting low pK missiles at you, defeating them by turning cold, and repeating that until all the launchers are out of missiles. Then fly in above the SA-15 WEZ and drop JDAMs or CBU-105s with impunity. This is great if there's a bunch of low altitude air defenses, but won't work as well if there are additional long range SAM sites around, or if the enemy has fighter cover. 

Only if you are sure to have Air Superiority= It works

The 1sr method described by Whiskey works well even if air space is contested