No FCR in the “2023 and Beyond” video

[shagrat]

Well, the real "Killer feature" isn't the FCR, it is the Longbow net, to quickly divide targets into groups or areas to prosecute by drawing areas on the TSD and transmitting/distributing this information between a flight of four AH-64D. FCR is the cherry on top, but for its full potential it needs the network, as well.

Meanwhile, we still have most features already that made the AH-64 famous in "Desert Storm" and "Just Cause". Still learning to be good in both seats...

[shagrat]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Rogue Trooper:

The AH-64D will beat the Gazelle!

Already, does by about 4km weapon engagement range... Hellfire vs. HOT. Plus the ability to engage multiple targets with Hellfire and guide them in sequence, if grouped close enough.

Gazelle can only guide one missile at once, then acquire the next target and fire again.

[hotrod525]

It's only a matter of time like most thing in DCS, why people jump to conclusion so quickly...

[NeedzWD40]

8 hours ago, tomcat_driver said:

Wow, you wake up today to spam the forums with your blablabla.

The only reason the FCR wasn't used is because "War on Terror", remember, low intensity, bombing ak-armed guerrillas from 30k ft with JDAMs and multi-million PGMs? That's basically over and the world is now, again, re-arming and re-indoctrinating for full spectrum warfare, like it was when the Apache was conceived.

What can I say? I like to rustle jimmies.

My "blablabla" comes from studying Army Aviation for quite some time, knowing more than a few people involved, and a small sliver of awareness of how these systems are intended to be applied on the field. Thus when I see a lot of discontent over the lack of systems such as the FCR, especially when it comes to a total misunderstanding of how said systems work, I'll chime in to annoy to explain the capabilities that exist even in absence of that equipment. Even in "full spectrum warfare," an AH-64D without the FCR and AGM-114L is an incredibly capable and potent weapon. It achieves this capability not by its own weaponry, but through the far more important data linking and information sharing utilities. In other words, the key capabilities that were added over a plain weapons and sensor package alone (which had been one of the intended upgrades in the late 80s).

I understand it's hard to believe, but the ability to work as part of a team eclipses any individual system's capabilities. The AH-64D was built to work within that framework by integrating with a combined air, land, and sea team composed of many working parts. Within that picture, the FCR has a place, but it is still a very small part of the whole. For the record, under the US Army's original plan, only 1 out of 4 aircraft would be FCR-equipped.

Perhaps it's time to write another guide...

[Raptor9]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so please keep it civil.

Having said that, the AH-64D's FCR is like an optional external sensor pod. Removing it is simply removing a sensor option, nothing more. It would be like saying the F-16C is only iconic because of its HTS pod, and removing it somehow detracts from the aircraft in other ways aside from removing a sensor.

I think that for many fans and advocates of the AH-64, its performance in Desert Storm prior to the FCR even existing, as well as its use in several conflicts in the past 20 years (such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, 98% of which was without FCR's), is what has made this aircraft iconic and legendary in its own right.

[pii]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:37 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

Say what? The datalink, IDM, communications suite, navigation suite, etc. don't make it great as it is?

You don't need the FCR to engage targets from defilade. All the existing weapons can be utilized from cover in an indirect fashion, including the laser AGM-114s.

The FCR and AGM-114Ls aren't mythical "I win" buttons for the aircraft. They are powerful tools, no doubt about it, but they serve only as augmentation to an already incredibly powerful weapons, sensors, and communications suite.

I think all those other things are backups for the FCR radar. But the FCR is the Holy Grail. ")

[toilet2000]

On 1/21/2023 at 3:19 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

What can I say? I like to rustle jimmies.

My "blablabla" comes from studying Army Aviation for quite some time, knowing more than a few people involved, and a small sliver of awareness of how these systems are intended to be applied on the field. Thus when I see a lot of discontent over the lack of systems such as the FCR, especially when it comes to a total misunderstanding of how said systems work, I'll chime in to annoy to explain the capabilities that exist even in absence of that equipment. Even in "full spectrum warfare," an AH-64D without the FCR and AGM-114L is an incredibly capable and potent weapon. It achieves this capability not by its own weaponry, but through the far more important data linking and information sharing utilities. In other words, the key capabilities that were added over a plain weapons and sensor package alone (which had been one of the intended upgrades in the late 80s).

I understand it's hard to believe, but the ability to work as part of a team eclipses any individual system's capabilities. The AH-64D was built to work within that framework by integrating with a combined air, land, and sea team composed of many working parts. Within that picture, the FCR has a place, but it is still a very small part of the whole. For the record, under the US Army's original plan, only 1 out of 4 aircraft would be FCR-equipped.

Perhaps it's time to write another guide...

The "work as part of a team" is very true... In real life.

In DCS, most fly SP and very rarely get to experience proper teamwork that makes use of comms and especially advanced datalinks, even in MP in public servers.

As such, the FCR makes for a much more interesting sensor in the ecosystem of DCS, because:

- By itself it can populate targets as would be received from the Longbow network.
- It will most likely work much more reliably w.r.t. its real world counterpart due to sensor limits and noise being rarely modeled in DCS.
- It allows for faster and easier targeting in "all-out warfare" scenarios, which hasn't really been the case in the real world since the introduction of the FCR (hence the general opinion in army aviation about it not being that useful).
- It allows targeting without visual IFF, which would be a big no-no in most cases IRL.
- It allows for multi-targeting/multiple launches using the AGM-114L, which again AFAIK was mostly a marketing thing and not used much IRL due to the limited use of such a tactic in past conflicts.

So at the end of the day, I can 100% understand the hype in DCS for the FCR, since it's a tool that is especially well fitting to DCS' typical scenarios.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the RFI above both the FCR and Longbow Net, with the FCR right after. Longbow Net is very cool and powerful, but will be of generally limited use in 80% of my DCS time.

Edited January 23, 2023 by toilet2000

[ShuRugal]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:37 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

Say what? The datalink, IDM, communications suite, navigation suite, etc. don't make it great as it is?

I think a better way to phrase it would be that the FCR is what gives the Apache the greatest advantage over the Ka-50, in DCS.

without the FCR, the Ka-50 is an objectively better platform for killing things in DCS.  It's easier to learn to fly, its very rapid to engage targets with, and the pilot automation systems are very simple and easy to learn.  When I used to fly the DCS Ka-50 every day, it was not uncommon for me to rack up kills twice as fast as the guys in A-10s, and the A-10 is an undisputed beast at killing tanks.

the AH-64 IRL is way better than the Ka-50, because crew coordination with trained pilots who fly together every day is always going to be better than using your thumbs to give an AI gunner or pilot orders, but in DCS that's not a feature most people get to take advantage of, simply due to the fact that most of us have real lives and can't coordinate to fly with the same people day in and day out in multiplayer.

The FCR will give the solo-pilot with an AI gunner a dramatic edge over the solo Ka-50 pilot, none of the other systems as implemented offer that.  (maybe that will change when we get a "george, kill anything you see, don't wait for me to tell you about it" button.)

[NeedzWD40]

On 1/23/2023 at 2:33 PM, toilet2000 said:

The "work as part of a team" is very true... In real life.

In DCS, most fly SP and very rarely get to experience proper teamwork that makes use of comms and especially advanced datalinks, even in MP in public servers.

As such, the FCR makes for a much more interesting sensor in the ecosystem of DCS, because:

- By itself it can populate targets as would be received from the Longbow network.
- It will most likely work much more reliably w.r.t. its real world counterpart due to sensor limits and noise being rarely modeled in DCS.
- It allows for faster and easier targeting in "all-out warfare" scenarios, which hasn't really been the case in the real world since the introduction of the FCR (hence the general opinion in army aviation about it not being that useful).
- It allows targeting without visual IFF, which would be a big no-no in most cases IRL.
- It allows for multi-targeting/multiple launches using the AGM-114L, which again AFAIK was mostly a marketing thing and not used much IRL due to the limited use of such a tactic in past conflicts.

So at the end of the day, I can 100% understand the hype in DCS for the FCR, since it's a tool that is especially well fitting to DCS' typical scenarios.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the RFI above both the FCR and Longbow Net, with the FCR right after. Longbow Net is very cool and powerful, but will be of generally limited use in 80% of my DCS time.

 

Succinctly written, but I think this is part of where I have to remind folks to temper their expectations. For example, the FCR doesn't have an IFF capability: it can't tell the difference between an enemy vehicle and a friendly vehicle. You'll get mostly the same information as you would from a F-16's GMT mode, so you'll still have to VID targets in a contested environment. BFT would be the real tool for that, though of course you'd want to VID to be sure anyways. Likewise, you're not going to be able to spin up all 16 AGM-114Ls and fire off on 16 different targets all at once with definite confirmation that each missile will go for the exact target you want.

If folks can understand what the AH-64D was built to do as opposed to what they want it to do, I think there'd be less disappointment all around. Ie, the desire having Stinger or Sidewinder because of frequent operations outside of friendly air defense as well as air cover. Both weapons are hardware solutions to a software problem and while I would appreciate having them, I can understand why they wouldn't be a priority in light of US Army doctrine. When you don't work within that doctrine, then you start to see shortcomings with the design.
 

6 hours ago, ShuRugal said:

I think a better way to phrase it would be that the FCR is what gives the Apache the greatest advantage over the Ka-50, in DCS.

without the FCR, the Ka-50 is an objectively better platform for killing things in DCS.  It's easier to learn to fly, its very rapid to engage targets with, and the pilot automation systems are very simple and easy to learn.  When I used to fly the DCS Ka-50 every day, it was not uncommon for me to rack up kills twice as fast as the guys in A-10s, and the A-10 is an undisputed beast at killing tanks.

the AH-64 IRL is way better than the Ka-50, because crew coordination with trained pilots who fly together every day is always going to be better than using your thumbs to give an AI gunner or pilot orders, but in DCS that's not a feature most people get to take advantage of, simply due to the fact that most of us have real lives and can't coordinate to fly with the same people day in and day out in multiplayer.

The FCR will give the solo-pilot with an AI gunner a dramatic edge over the solo Ka-50 pilot, none of the other systems as implemented offer that.  (maybe that will change when we get a "george, kill anything you see, don't wait for me to tell you about it" button.)

With a lot of time in all the DCS helicopters (probably way too much), I can't agree that the FCR would be the greatest advantage of the AH-64 over the others. Within my use cases, the weapons, TADS, ergonomics, displays, and ASE completely eclipse the Ka-50 in every way, shape and form. Don't get me wrong: I like the Ka-50 for what it is, but I usually run into some kind of limitation with its capabilities that restrict the things I'd like to do with it. Of course, that's very subjective as we've seen here and I've butted heads with many folks on the topic. Bottom line, if the expectation is that the AH-64D will be some kind of souped-up Ka-50, there will be no end to the disappointment because that's not what the aircraft was built to do in the real world.

If the intent of the DCS AH-64D is to create a realistic and accurate likeness of the US Army's AH-64D Block 2 circa 2005-2010, the end result will be a module that fits in a very particular puzzle, one that requires certain considerations from the players and scenario designers.

FWIW, I play the AH-64D almost exclusively from the front seat.

[ShuRugal]

3 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

FWIW, I play the AH-64D almost exclusively from the front seat.

And if I were able to do the same, I'd probably agree with your assessment.  the sensors, even only the ones currently implemented, ARE better than Ka-50.

But for those of us stuck using George (who is a complete egg in a hostile environment), the ability to aim the missiles AND fly at the same time make the Ka-50 a completely different animal.  To say nothing of the fact that a Vikhr can reach and kill those annoying SACLOS SAM units faster than the SAM missile reaches the helicopter.  In the AH-64 without someone flying high cover to buddy lase for me, I'm helpless against most SAMs, because even the lowest difficulty DCS AI has instant reflexes and absurd aim.  The best i'm able to manage is hover out of range at a high enough altitude to get LoS, which is just begging to get splatted by an AI Flanker with their god-like powers of detecting aircraft above 1,000' AGL.

[Floyd1212]

Going up against SAMs is one of my favorite things to do; much more exciting than plinking targets out at 8 km that don't even shoot back.

For a particularly nasty SAM, LOAL is the way to go.  You can use George in "No Weapon" mode to track the target from behind cover without lasing, launch your LOAL missile, then unmask and tell George to flip on the laser.  Takes a little practice, but very rewarding when that Tunguska never even saw it coming.

FCR is going to make this almost too easy...

[corbu1]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Floyd1212:

.

For a particularly nasty SAM, LOAL is the way to go.  You can use George in "No Weapon" mode to track the target from behind cover without lasing, launch your LOAL missile, then unmask and tell George to flip on the laser.  Takes a little practice, but very rewarding when that Tunguska never even saw it coming.

 

That‘s exactly the method I use LOAL as well….Yes, with some practice it works quite well.