RTX 3090 24G versus 4080 16G or AMD 7900XTX 24GO

[CougarFFW04]

Hi everyone,

I don't know where to put this so please excuse me and move it if there is a better forum room.

I am going to upgrade soon my PC computer mostly dedicated to DCS and I am wondering what would be the best graphic card option for runing DCS in VR with a reverb G2: RTX 3090 24G versus RTX 4080 16G.

On one hand the 4080 is more recent and seems to give better FPS but it has less VRam (16) than the 3090 (24) which seem to be crucial in VR.

What about the AMD 7900XTX Founder Edition 24GO

Thanks for giving me clues to decide what will be the best option.

Happy  DCS flying

Edited January 16, 2023 by CougarFFW04

[silverdevil]

7 minutes ago, CougarFFW04 said:

Hi everyone,

I don't know where to put this so please excuse me and move it if there is a better forum room.

I am going to upgrade soon my PC computer mostly dedicated to DCS and I am wondering what would be the best graphic card option for runing DCS in VR with a reverb G2: RTX 3090 24G versus RTX 4080 16G.

On one hand the 4080 is more recent and seems to give better FPS but it has less VRam (16) than the 3090 (24) which seem to be crucial in VR.

Thanks for giving me clues to decide what will be the best option.

Happy  DCS flying

 

i have had 3090 since april 2021 although no VR. i think the general consensus is that right now the CPU without multithreading is a bit of a bottleneck. look for a CPU that has a good single core performance. i think the GPU difference is negligible. but VRAM is never a bad thing. 

[CougarFFW04]

@silverdevil : thanks for your advises

[MadKreator]

I went from a 3080 to a 4080 and its a beast. Not so much in DCS because of the cpu bottleneck. The gpu side isn’t really the issue. I play dcs in pancake mode, but in the other “civil sim”, I only play in VR, granted I’m only using a quest 2, but I saw significant improvements. In benchmark data, for whatever that is worth,  the 4080 outperforms the 3090. At this stage in DCS its really a tough call. Especially with multi-thread and the new game engine “right around the corner”. DCS VR is very poorly optimized at the moment. In theory either card should give great VR performance on a G2. I have a buddy that uses a g2 with a 3090 and has no real complaints, although I haven’t drilled him about fps/ frame times etc. My quest can hold 90fps with 1.5 scaling in oculus software without using the oculus tool tray or any sort of workarounds The  4080  can do much more than my headset can handle, but DCS lack of vr optimization  , makes it kind off a crap shoot for any card/ headset combo right now. As a 4080 owner, I would buy it again in a heart beat, I have no regrets and no complaints, and I’m just using a non-overclocked FE model.

I will say, though, I have never  checked my VRAM usage in dcs. In other games (COD, Battlefield etc) with settings on ultra, ray tracing on, pushing to a 5120x1440 screen I don’t use anywhere close to 16 gigs.. vr needs more, sure, but just to be forthcoming, I don’t know what real dcs usage looks like at this stage.

Edited January 16, 2023 by MadKreator

[CougarFFW04]

@MadKreator: thanks for comments.

Does anyone use AMD 7900XTX Founder Edition 24GO in DCS VR ?

[Topo]

Amd drivers can be a problem in VR at the moment.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Topo

[rayrayblues]

@CougarFFW04

Right now, the best GPU out there is the 4090.

If your system and wallet can handle it, that would be the way to go.

It would also "future proof" your system for several years ahead.

As for the 7900XTX, I'm not an AMD guy, so I wouldn't know.

[Iron Sights]

I would go 4090 if the power supply can take it. VRAM is nice but I think 24Gb just may be overkill.

[Voyager]

Hellhound RX 7900 XTX Takes on the RTX 4080
https://babeltechreviews.com/hellhound-rx-7900-xtx-vs-rtx-4080-50-games-vr/

In the early drivers, the 7900XTX seems to have a lot of frame time problems. I think that's more down to the maturity of AMDs driver team than a hardware design issue, but it will probably be six months+ before they get it sorted. Maybe a year for VR since it's pretty rare still. 

From what I understand, 12-16Gb of VRam is fine, though in the multiplayer servers it can end up being on the small size. 

[ssg]

10 hours ago, CougarFFW04 said:

@MadKreator: thanks for comments.

Does anyone use AMD 7900XTX Founder Edition 24GO in DCS VR ?

I bought it and after 2 weeks of testing I returned it. My 3080 10Gb gets better performance generally. XTX solved the frame drop issue I have with this card but other than that it performed worse. I would avoid AMD for now for VR. 

[trevoC]

4090 hands down. 3090 (ti) if you can't.

[Thinder]

On 1/16/2023 at 8:25 PM, CougarFFW04 said:

@MadKreator: thanks for comments.

Does anyone use AMD 7900XTX Founder Edition 24GO in DCS VR ?

Why would people do that? They were literally rushed to production and when one manufacturer does that, bad things happen.

Not one single manufacturer is using the stock Founder Edition cooler design and personally I ran a test with 3DMark Pro at MSAA X2 and the GPU never reached higher temperatures than 72 °C, that's with a bad cooling due to my motherboard refusal to run the card on PCI_E1, I had to lower it to PCI_E2 and the card is very close to the top of the power unit.

I had to dismount one fan and it sits now at the bottom of the case, blowing upward through an opening, not ideal but still no hot spot or throttling down due to thermal limits.

My tip: Do not use the Founder Edition card, look for an AMD card with a good cooling design, it's worth the extra money.

Sapphire Radeon RX 7900 XTX Nitro+ Vapor-X 24GB GDDR6 first run.

 

On 1/17/2023 at 7:22 AM, ssg said:

I bought it and after 2 weeks of testing I returned it. My 3080 10Gb gets better performance generally. XTX solved the frame drop issue I have with this card but other than that it performed worse. I would avoid AMD for now for VR. 

Would be nice to know your PC specs, People generally don't really know how to set up an AMD system starting with RAM, that's where performances are lost...

[Thinder]

On 1/16/2023 at 5:35 PM, CougarFFW04 said:

Hi everyone,

I don't know where to put this so please excuse me and move it if there is a better forum room.

I am going to upgrade soon my PC computer mostly dedicated to DCS and I am wondering what would be the best graphic card option for runing DCS in VR with a reverb G2: RTX 3090 24G versus RTX 4080 16G.

On one hand the 4080 is more recent and seems to give better FPS but it has less VRam (16) than the 3090 (24) which seem to be crucial in VR.

What about the AMD 7900XTX Founder Edition 24GO

Thanks for giving me clues to decide what will be the best option.

Happy  DCS flying

 

If your system is Intel-based then I can't really advise you but if you use a Ryzen 3/3D then you have to understand that their architecture is designed for lower latency, and despite the fact that their controllers limits the RAM frequency at DDR4-3200 with high street RAM (not B.die) you can gain a lot by using Cl14/B.die kits, including settings at 3600 from stock or O.Ced. Those kits O.C very well, for both AMD and Intel users.

Be it with a 5600X or even better the 7 5800X 3D which cache combined with Cl14 RAM can offer a significant increase in performance under load (that would be 4K), and yes it translated to DCS as well, I played multi-players scenarios with my 1080Ti with nearly all settings maxed out, FPS wasn't fantastic but it worked.

It's up to you which CPU to use anyway but if you go the AMD way you'll be able to optimize your system in order to prevent your CPU to throttle down under load thanks to the RAM.

Here, tested in 3DMark Pro at 4K 2 X MSAA, from a 5600X/Cl14 3200 to a 7 5800X 3D Cl14 3600. The 5600X and its RAM were boosted with Ryzen Master and Afterburner, the settings for the 7 5800X 3D and RAM were stock, so there is an increase in performance at 4K because there is no longer a GPU/RAM/CPU bottleneck and the CPU controller can keep all channels fully opened.

That's the first thing I did with my AMD system and the extra money for the B.die RAM is worth it.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Thinder

[ssg]

50 minutes ago, Thinder said:

Why would people do that? They were literally rushed to production and when one manufacturer does that, bad things happen.

Not one single manufacturer is using the stock Founder Edition cooler design and personally I ran a test with 3DMark Pro at MSAA X2 and the GPU never reached higher temperatures than 72 °C, that's with a bad cooling due to my motherboard refusal to run the card on PCI_E1, I had to lower it to PCI_E2 and the card is very close to the top of the power unit.

I had to dismount one fan and it sits now at the bottom of the case, blowing upward through an opening, not ideal but still no hot spot or throttling down due to thermal limits.

My tip: Do not use the Founder Edition card, look for an AMD card with a good cooling design, it's worth the extra money.

Sapphire Radeon RX 7900 XTX Nitro+ Vapor-X 24GB GDDR6 first run.

 

Would be nice to know your PC specs, People generally don't really know how to set up an AMD system starting with RAM, that's where performances are lost...

5800x3D and 32Gb of RAM. The ram was specced to be optimal for 5600x (Mhz, Ranks, CL). I haven't checked if 5800x3D would benefit from different specs on RAM and frankly I don't feel like getting another set of DDR4 when DDR5 is right around the corner when I do my next CPU upgrade. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by ssg

[Thinder]

6 minutes ago, ssg said:

5800x3D and 32Gb of RAM. The ram was specced to be optimal for 5600x (Mhz, Ranks, CL). I haven't checked if 5800x3D would benefit from different specs on RAM and frankly I don't feel like getting another set of DDR4 when DDR5 is right around the corner when I do my next CPU upgrade. 

 

Right, apart for the fact that the Zen 3/3D doesn't support it you're free to do what you want.

DDR5 is designed for the next generation sockets, that would be Zen4, it won't work that well with a Zen3... Check AMD web sites for both those CPU, it's not hard to figure it out.

Here are my VR settings, Just did a fast run with my PICO4, image quality can be improved but FPS is smooth, I haven't managed to get Afterburner overlay in replays yet but I will, you'll be hard pressed to get the same results with a non-optimized RAM kit for a Ryzen3...

Edited January 20, 2023 by Thinder

[ssg]

19 minutes ago, Thinder said:

Right, apart for the fact that the Zen 3/3D doesn't support it you're free to do what you want.

DDR5 is designed for the next generation sockets, that would be Zen4, it won't work that well with a Zen3... Check AMD web sites for both those CPU, it's not hard to figure it out.

I think you missed the point. Optimizing ram now for 5800x3D would be mostly waste of time and money. Getting 64Gb(or even 32Gb) DDR4 set optimized for 3D is tempting option, but depending on performance of Zen4 3D cached CPUs it could be terrible idea. It is most likely more cost efficient just wait for performance tests of those CPUs and upgrade to Zen4 and DDR5 rather than get DDR4 that might give slight performance boost as temporary solution. Especially considering there won't be better CPU for this socket so this upgrade path is already dead. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by ssg

[Thinder]

47 minutes ago, ssg said:

I think you missed the point. Optimizing ram now for 5800x3D would be mostly waste of time and money. Getting 64Gb DDR4 set optimized for 3D is tempting option, but depending on performance of Zen4 3D cached CPUs it could be terrible idea. It is most likely more cost efficient just wait for performance tests of those CPUs and upgrade to Zen4 and DDR5 rather than get DDR4 that might give slight performance boost as temporary solution. 

Yeah right. Another one who argue with what AMD is saying of their CPU... So according to you what will be the performance enhancement offered by Zen 4 and DDR5 then?

I didn't miss anything, DDR5 is FAR from offering the kind of low latency the Ryzen 3/3D were designed to use and they haven't even tested it with Zen 3 because there is no support for it, they don't beneficiate from frequencies higher than 3600 when coupled with Cl14 kits under load, at 4K that's the absolute limit of their controllers.

By going out of those limits you simply create a bootleneck because the Zen3/3D controller won't take it, any amount of wishful thinking won't change this fact, so if people have a Zen 3, Cl 14 is the way to go, they might wish for the Zen 4/DDR5 to be an improvement but buck for performance I wouldn't swear it right now, that's just assumption today.

And also, why do you need 64Gb of Cl14 with a 5800x3D? It's not the quantity of RAM or higher frequencies which helps, it's the number of time the CPU needs to refresh data from the RAM and with the cache this number is much lower, that's why it works perfectly with the Cl14 RAM, even 16Gb or 8 for that matter, I should know I used 8Gb to sort out my GPU issues.

So at the end of the day it is about using known, tested and proven technologies or go for the next gen, pay the premiums while RAM manufacturers are still looking for a viable replacement to B.die for their RAM chips because right now, they haven't got it and have to increase frequencies only to keep their chips stable.

 

Just a clue... Ryzen 7 5800X3D 3.4 / 4.5 GHz cache.  <> £349.00. AMD increases cache on their socket 4 or other Zen 3 but the DDR5 RAM are still way behind when it comes to latency, result? No such thing as Cl14 low latency with DDR5 systems...

So I'm not sure I missed anything here...

AMD Ryzen™ 7 5800X3D

AMD Zen 4 Ryzen 7000 Specs, Release Date, Benchmarks, Price Listings Nov 2022.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Thinder

[EightyDuce]

1 hour ago, Thinder said:

Yeah right. Another one who argue with what AMD is saying of their CPU... So according to you what will be the performance enhancement offered by Zen 4 and DDR5 then?

I didn't miss anything, DDR5 is FAR from offering the kind of low latency the Ryzen 3/3D were designed to use and they haven't even tested it with Zen 3 because there is no support for it, they don't beneficiate from frequencies higher than 3600 when coupled with Cl14 kits under load, at 4K that's the absolute limit of their controllers.

By going out of those limits you simply create a bootleneck because the Zen3/3D controller won't take it, any amount of wishful thinking won't change this fact, so if people have a Zen 3, Cl 14 is the way to go, they might wish for the Zen 4/DDR5 to be an improvement but buck for performance I wouldn't swear it right now, that's just assumption today.

And also, why do you need 64Gb of Cl14 with a 5800x3D? It's not the quantity of RAM or higher frequencies which helps, it's the number of time the CPU needs to refresh data from the RAM and with the cache this number is much lower, that's why it works perfectly with the Cl14 RAM, even 16Gb or 8 for that matter, I should know I used 8Gb to sort out my GPU issues.

So at the end of the day it is about using known, tested and proven technologies or go for the next gen, pay the premiums while RAM manufacturers are still looking for a viable replacement to B.die for their RAM chips because right now, they haven't got it and have to increase frequencies only to keep their chips stable.

 

Just a clue... Ryzen 7 5800X3D 3.4 / 4.5 GHz cache.  <> £349.00. AMD increases cache on their socket 4 or other Zen 3 but the DDR5 RAM are still way behind when it comes to latency, result? No such thing as Cl14 low latency with DDR5 systems...

 

 

Sir, first of all, it is always a pleasure to see you come down from the heavens and impart some worldly tech knowledge on us mere peasants.

Now, it's a bit hard to follow your augments as you typically seem to take any disagreement with you as a personal attack then go on a disjointed tirade, but let's try to take this piece by piece. I do apologize in advance if I'm misunderstanding some of your ramblings as English is not my first language.

Quote

Yeah right. Another one who argue with what AMD is saying of their CPU... So according to you what will be the performance enhancement offered by Zen 4 and DDR5 then?

Since you like to quote AMD (see pretty pictures below),there is the info from the horses mouth regarding their own CPUs so they should know best right (if you can believe their marketing at this point)? According to AMD marketing, Zen4 X3D brings 21%-30% uplift in gaming-performance from 5800X3D.

null

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I didn't miss anything, DDR5 is FAR from offering the kind of low latency the Ryzen 3/3D were designed to use and they haven't even tested it with Zen 3 because there is no support for it, they don't beneficiate from frequencies higher than 3600 when coupled with Cl14 kits under load, at 4K that's the absolute limit of their controllers.

Let's be honest here, Zen wasn't DESIGNED to be speed limited by their memory controller/IF; it's not like engineers went, you know fellas, I know we can hit 4400 on our memory controller, but lets cap it 3200-3600. It was a compromise, which left them favoring latency because they knew they wouldn't be able to hit the speeds... and that's fine, the performance is there in the end. But as you mentioned, going outside of the limits wont help as you will have to downclock your RAM.

Which brings us to the next point of going for 3600 CL14 memory to add to a EOL platform (still capable).

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And also, why do you need 64Gb of Cl14 with a 5800x3D? It's not the quantity of RAM or higher frequencies which helps, it's the number of time the CPU needs to refresh data from the RAM and with the cache this number is much lower, that's why it works perfectly with the Cl14 RAM, even 16Gb or 8 for that matter, I should know I used 8Gb to sort out my GPU issues.

Not really sure who died and made you the RAM King to decide what people need or don't, but DCS will handily take more than 32Gb of RAM. Then, and this is where it's fairly evident that you're  a bit out of your depth but still decided to jump in, while speed plays a role in performance, so does the capacity. What happens when RAM needs overflow available RAM, that data goes into the Page File, which is stored on your HDD/SSD/NVME drive...all of which are significantly slower than RAM (performance hit).

Quote

So at the end of the day it is about using known, tested and proven technologies or go for the next gen, pay the premiums while RAM manufacturers are still looking for a viable replacement to B.die for their RAM chips because right now, they haven't got it and have to increase frequencies only to keep their chips stable.

 

DDR5 has come down in price significantly, to the point where it makes little to no sense in buying DDR4 if you are building a new system. While the latency of DDR5 isn't as low as something B.die (28 vs 14), it's an apples to hotdogs comparison as the sheer speed of DDR5 is nearly 2X that of DDR4. If we ever see CL14 on DDR5 it won't be in the near future, but one thing is for sure, DDR4 won't ever see 6200/6400Mhz.

 

Lastly let's look at the value aspect.

At this point building a new system and going for older gen doesn't make sense, if you're doing a drop-in replacement I understand. Quality DDR4 3600 CL14 RAM which you love (in the US) will run you $200-$600 for 32Gb-64Gb packs. (https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/#b=ddr4&S=3600&Z=32768002,32768004,65536002,65536004&L=25,140&sort=price&page=1). 5800X3D will be $350ish, motherboard $150-ish... that's in the ballpark of $700-$1000 for RAM+CPU+MOBO which are end of life and won't be re-used unless you continue to use old hardware.

7700X (sells for  $350 right now), 32Gb DDR5 6000/6400 CL32/30 that can easily be tuned to CL28 (https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/#b=ddr5&Z=32768002,65536002&L=280,320&S=6000,6400) is $197-250 and 64Gb packs are $350-400, a solid B650 motherboard is $250. So for $800-1000 you can have a system that will mostly trade blows with 5800X3D in gaming (beat it sometimes) and outright beat it out in productivity while providing you  with years of upgrades. If you throw the 7800X3D into the mix, I would "expect" the price to be in the $450 range, so for $900-1100 that will handily hand 5800X3D it's 3rd-point-of-contact while costing $200 more?

 

PS: I know you get a tingle in your undies when you see AMD and RAM used in the same sentence, but CL14 vs. what you call "unoptimized" CL16 isn't going to cause some performance-crippling effect on your gaming...the performance delta, on a good day is around 5%.