Mirage F1 flight envelop and characteristics.

[Thinder]

I was just wondering if those two parameters were so accurate because I find the F1 a little too nervous...

There is a huge amount of induce yaw strolling the nose from side to side even without using the rudder and the effect increase with AoA, the aircraft is quite unstable, does roll inputs really have this effect with the real Mirage F1, if there are ex-F1 pilot out there, it would help to have their opinions.

I also find it nearly impossible to trim it accurately, normally most aircraft respond rather well to trimming so as to make it possible to fly them on the trim, here the slightest change in engine rmp will blow a stable trim setting.

I've been struggling with taxiing too, to a point where I would miss a turn or scrap the runway with a wing tip, it cause me to crash taking off or landing without the nose wheel steering on, just to say, if you can't use the rudder or differential wheel brakes to correct your alignment it's not normal.

I flew a few real aircraft both with instructors, as co-pilot and solo, ranging from Piper cub to Seneca and Centurion, none of those had caused me so much trouble and I was 17, when I started, it's been a long time since last flight (a glider in Cornwall) but I know I can handle an aircraft, this ain't it.

So the question is, are the controls of the F1 overdone? I'm not asking for a sanitized flight characteristic but seriously, if the real aircraft was like this, then we had a generation of hyper talented guys in the AdlA...

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Thinder

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

I often see posts saying something is wrong with various flight models, and it is usually based on feelings of something isnt right. I would suggest if you have actual evidence something is wrong you should present it to the dev team. Please also include a track replay example. 

thanks 

bignewy

[Hiob]

@Thinder Have you tried to adjust the axis curve settings for your Inputs? It's rather difficult (impossible) to account for all the different input-devices out there. That's why the input curve editor is a thing. When controls are perceived as too nervous, that usually helps. Also keep in mind that that your "home simulator" doesn't have the resistance of the flight surfaces that the real aircraft would - so your basically flying with super human strength.

[Thinder]

48 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

I often see posts saying something is wrong with various flight models, and it is usually based on feelings of something isnt right. I would suggest if you have actual evidence something is wrong you should present it to the dev team. Please also include a track replay example. 

thanks 

bignewy

I was referring to the raw flight model, without adjusting curves which I have done, but compared to a F15C without adjusted curves, the aircraft is hardly manageable.

Yesterday I had a multi-player flight time with fab.13

I crashed out taxiing, I crashed during take off and landing, he could see how difficult it was for me to control the aircraft even from the air, I don't keep tracks which are containing this sort of incidents so you will have to take my word for it, but he passed me his curves and I adopted them, it makes things a lot easier, but I still find it near impossible to trim it and the yaw induced moment is still quite important.

So I think Aerges are aware of this all since they wrote the algorythms, what I think is that it has been overdone because I never heard of the F1 behaving like that, for sure it is not a fly-by-wire aircraft, not a 2000C but even if I know that spoilers can induce yaw moments I am not sure it translate up to this amplitude, reason why I am interested to hear the opinion of an actual F1 pilot.

If we manage to have some expert insight, then I will communicate my questions to Aerges if relevant.

[Thinder]

6 minutes ago, Hiob said:

@Thinder Have you tried to adjust the axis curve settings for your Inputs? It's rather difficult (impossible) to account for all the different input-devices out there. That's why the input curve editor is a thing. When controls are perceived as too nervous, that usually helps. Also keep in mind that that your "home simulator" doesn't have the resistance of the flight surfaces that the real aircraft would - so your basically flying with super human strength.

Of course I did, I flew test flights many times to correct the issue and I couldn't quite manage to have a satisfactory setting, it took the intervention of fab.13  to get something I was able to manage, I just flew some laps with touch and go and it helps but I still find the the trimming and induced yaw issues a tad too much.

I didn't crash and managed a few touch and go...

[Bremspropeller]

Aerges said they'd change things in the controls-behaviour with the next update. We'll just about have to wait and see.

 

[Kerosene]

 

I don't have any idea of the real behavior of the plane but when we look at this video of the flight of a Mirage F1 during an aerobatic show we can see that the DCS F1 does not behave like the real one.

In this video you can easily see the aoa, the speed, the altitude, the afterburner, the movements of the stick and those of the pilot.

I tried to reproduce this situation with an unarmed plane with 50% of fuel but I was unable to cancel the unwanted yawing movements of the nose.

It would be interesting to have the opinion of a real Mirage F1 pilot.

[Thinder]

2 hours ago, Kerosene said:

 

I don't have any idea of the real behavior of the plane but when we look at this video of the flight of a Mirage F1 during an aerobatic show we can see that the DCS F1 does not behave like the real one.

In this video you can easily see the aoa, the speed, the altitude, the afterburner, the movements of the stick and those of the pilot.

I tried to reproduce this situation with an unarmed plane with 50% of fuel but I was unable to cancel the unwanted yawing movements of the nose.

It would be interesting to have the opinion of a real Mirage F1 pilot.

 

Good one.

Same here, although I know enough about the F1 to be suspicious, Dassault wouldn't have released in the market an aircraft with this sort of behavior, according to some F1 CR pilot who transitioned from the IIIR, it is more lively in turbulent atmosphere because of the slats, but nothing about induced yaw at all.

In this video we can see him flying between 300 and 400 kt, rolling out of a turn a lot quicker than I dare in the game with no adverse effect to the aircraft stability, he even reaches the yellow/red zone in the AoA indicator without blinking.

During his touch and go he can make small corrections with precision, something I find impossible even with good curves dampening most of those adverse effects, when I spend my time chasing the axis with the velocity vector all over the place, in short the aircraft looks a lot more stable and controllable than the module.

I just want to say to finish that I think that this module is already very good, I'm happy I purchased it and those little issues will certainly will be sorted, then we will have more time to focus on the systems and procedures...

Edited January 18, 2023 by Thinder

[chichowalker]

3 hours ago, Kerosene said:

 

I don't have any idea of the real behavior of the plane but when we look at this video of the flight of a Mirage F1 during an aerobatic show we can see that the DCS F1 does not behave like the real one.

In this video you can easily see the aoa, the speed, the altitude, the afterburner, the movements of the stick and those of the pilot.

I tried to reproduce this situation with an unarmed plane with 50% of fuel but I was unable to cancel the unwanted yawing movements of the nose.

It would be interesting to have the opinion of a real Mirage F1 pilot.

I dont know what are you watching here but this video behaviour is very close to what you have now. Anyway, FM continue WIP and continue updated to be closer to real one but problems you describe are more closer to how to control the aircraft better than how the FM is. Right now, without fixing FM, DCS behaviour in this part of the envelope showed in the video is good, bus I insist, continue WIP.

[Thinder]

3 hours ago, chichowalker said:

I dont know what are you watching here but this video behaviour is very close to what you have now. Anyway, FM continue WIP and continue updated to be closer to real one but problems you describe are more closer to how to control the aircraft better than how the FM is. Right now, without fixing FM, DCS behaviour in this part of the envelope showed in the video is good, bus I insist, continue WIP.

I don't think it is.

You imply that players are not able to control the aircraft when in fact it is an issue with the flight characteristics, induced yaw is a reality with spoilers but again not to this amplitude, one should be able to input small corrections without any adverse moment as it is the case in this video.

If the pilot use the stick with small corrections there shouldn't be any yaw moment as shown in this video, not the case with the module.

 

[Thinder]

9 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Aerges said they'd change things in the controls-behaviour with the next update. We'll just about have to wait and see.

 

They wouldn't introduce changes if there were no issues.

[fausete]

Hi guys.

We have reworked the pitch control to reduce sensitivity, I think you'll find that curves become much less necessary after the next patch. More than an FM issue it's an issue of how a 'home' control stick that has no trim movement or reaction forces is represented in-game (this is a design choice for the developer).

Regarding lateral stability, at high AoA it's recommended to use the rudder. We've also reworked the NWS controls and the result is a more satisfactory behaviour on the ground now. Keep in mind it will still be quite sensitive, according to how it is in the real aircraft.

Some work on high AoA behaviour will continue to be done after this update.

Also, @chichowalker is a former F1 pilot so he will be able to solve your doubts better.

In general, the next update will change many things and I think you will like the changes.

Edited January 19, 2023 by fausete

[Thinder]

I'm sure we all will, thanks guys for the hard work!

There sure are issues with our control integration and interaction to the game, I use a Thrustmaster Warthog with a TWCS throttle and I had no issues with the Mirage 2000C or any other modules I flew up to now, I figured trying to set up the curves would help but on my own it was near impossible to get a satisfactory set up especially rudder.

My Warthog trim is set but stock, perhaps I might be able to make it more reactive because if I try to fly the aircraft on trim right now it's a bit of a roller coaster ride, I'm sure the real F1 isn't so difficult to trim.

It would be good to have or be able to find some info in game (present in the aircraft manual) such as:

RPM/speed for pattern level flight with landing gear and flaps down, I do a lot of speed hunting which doesn't help and the result is very distracting.

Pattern Altitude. If I want to do a PTL, I need those parameters to get it right, if the airfields provide with those info it's a lot better than guessing, I was trained for the rectangular pattern at 500ft among other techniques, right now I'm only guessing and In some maps it is impossible to fly that low, so if the info are out there we need to find them.

Normally when you're based on an airfield you have ground visual clues to know when to start the turns on top of the 45° to runway axis clue, at the right distance from runway, altitude and speed it makes things a lot easier, we need to learn this stuff with the F1 before using IFR instruments to land.

 

Anyway, as I was saying, the module is already very good, fine tuning it will only make it better.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Thinder

[fausete]

The info is already in the manual as far as I can tell. Check subsections 'Patterns' and 'Landing' in chapter 'Normal Procedures'.

[Thinder]

Seen it but when you start, you'd like to have access to them in game, been doing touch and go to test my curve settings and get use to the pattern, in some training maps you can't even access the airfield radio and TACAN infos, no TWR comm, you have to hope it's already all set up for you...

[Fox One]

In the video already posted in this thread @14m18s the pilot performs an Immelmann followed by a roll and a half during descent

 

 

I have tried to recreate this using the latest version, track attached. What actually interests me here is the roll.

In the video pilot initiates roll at about 130kts, notice how the ball on artificial horizon moves just a little to the right. In my track the ball moves a little left, then hard right, then a little left, then hard right where it remains.

 

I will now compare the last 360 deg of roll, the established roll. The aircraft speed in my track at the beginning and at the end of this roll corresponds pretty well with the video. Roll duration too.

 

Notice in the video how during the roll a point on the ground right in front of the aircraft – the intersection of taxiway to the runway – rotates in a quite small circle. This shows that during the roll the aircraft has a low beta angle, it is almost “pointed”.

 

Now look at my track, watch the aircraft in external view from behind. The aircraft’s longitudinal axis rotates on a cone with a quite substantial tip angle. This happens because during the roll the aircraft has a large beta angle, probably in excess of 10 deg. Because of this, between the start of this established roll and the end of it the aircraft changes its heading with an astonishing 18 deg angle. If the aircraft had a modern HUD, during the roll the velocity vector would leave the HUD sideways.

 

In the video, when the roll ends the nose remains where it was. There is an almost imperceptible yaw oscillation of one or two deg.

In my track, because during the roll the flight control system deflects the rudder a lot trying to fight yaw rate/ adverse yaw, when the roll ends the nose goes left 37 deg, then right 11 deg, then left again 6 deg.

 

All the people in this thread already noticed long ago what I described here. Is the developer's official position that actually everything is fine?

test2.trk

[Fox One]

I have performed again the test described in the post above using the latest version of the sim, track attached.

 

I don’t think I see an improvement. In the video, when the roll ends the ball on the artificial horizon was displaced about one diameter. From the moment when the roll ends it takes the ball only half a second to be centered again. In simulator, when roll ends the ball goes FULL left, then FULL right, then center. From the moment the roll ends it takes the ball 3 seconds until is centered again!!! The nose still yaws at huge angles until the yawing motion stops. The sim and the video still are night and day.

 

I am sure the real aircraft doesn’t yaw so badly after a roll in identical conditions, even with the rudder damper switch off. Such an aircraft would not have been accepted for operational service, even half a century ago.

 

This is the only aircraft in DCS that during a roll the longitudinal axis of the aircraft rotates on a large cone, it looks shocking even in cockpit view. This is the only aircraft in DCS that, after a fast roll can’t be stopped precisely where you want, the controllability is way too imprecise. This is the only aircraft in DCS that, after a roll it takes 3 seconds for the resulting chaos to fully die down. Awesome “handling qualities” for an aircraft with a pretty sophisticated flight control system

 

This simulation has been in EA for over a year now. It should be by now in a pretty well polished state. It is not. IMO this FM is still not ready for EA. It is still in a way too rudimentary state.

 

Personally I regret very much buying this module. In my mind I have very greatly overestimated the developer’s competence. I was naive.

test1.trk

[Vibora]

Our simulation was developed from real Mirage F1 engineering data, and we have constant feedback provided by SME, real F1 pilots. We keep working on improving the model based on all this. This said, it can happen that data is misunderstood, that some data is missing or unreliable (let’s say for example data at extreme AoA, etc), or that there are bugs in our code that make the simulated airplane behave different from the real one. We are currently working on a significant FM update focused on roll behaviours that will improve lateral stability, as well as other aspects of the flight characteristics.. We appreciate feedback when it is based on evidence, not on subjective opinions and, mainly, when it is transmitted in a polite manner.

[chichowalker]

I have performed again the test described in the post above using the latest version of the sim, track attached.

 
I don’t think I see an improvement. In the video, when the roll ends the ball on the artificial horizon was displaced about one diameter. From the moment when the roll ends it takes the ball only half a second to be centered again. In simulator, when roll ends the ball goes FULL left, then FULL right, then center. From the moment the roll ends it takes the ball 3 seconds until is centered again!!! The nose still yaws at huge angles until the yawing motion stops. The sim and the video still are night and day.

 
I am sure the real aircraft doesn’t yaw so badly after a roll in identical conditions, even with the rudder damper switch off. Such an aircraft would not have been accepted for operational service, even half a century ago.

 
This is the only aircraft in DCS that during a roll the longitudinal axis of the aircraft rotates on a large cone, it looks shocking even in cockpit view. This is the only aircraft in DCS that, after a fast roll can’t be stopped precisely where you want, the controllability is way too imprecise. This is the only aircraft in DCS that, after a roll it takes 3 seconds for the resulting chaos to fully die down. Awesome “handling qualities” for an aircraft with a pretty sophisticated flight control system

 
This simulation has been in EA for over a year now. It should be by now in a pretty well polished state. It is not. IMO this FM is still not ready for EA. It is still in a way too rudimentary state.

 
Personally I regret very much buying this module. In my mind I have very greatly overestimated the developer’s competence. I was naive.
test1.trk

I'm sorry for your thoughts. Aerges team is one of the most profesional group I have ever found. That's the reason that demonstrates that a compromise exists to continue updating and improving the module to be most accurate one. Like everything, perfect things needs time and effort. Its a pity that you can not see the new FM changes incoming....

Enviado desde mi SM-G981B mediante Tapatalk

[Winterz]

Cherry picking in very particular parts of the flight envelope will always result in deviations from the norm...

[chichowalker]

We have to correct all stuff that are not correct to adjust the whole envelope...

Enviado desde mi SM-G981B mediante Tapatalk

[Ebphoto]

Just curios, are any of you actual pilots? Have you flown a real airplane & if you have, were any of them high performance jets or even prop planes or Military fighter jets? Have you flown a Mirage F1? Watching this video and comparing what you see then try to copy in the sim is not a very good comparison in my opinion. You cannot see the pilots stick movements, nor can you see what his feet are doing with the rudder! He could be using small rudder inputs to control the yaw of the jet like most pilots do to have a controlled turn etc…. The development guys at Aerges Engineering are speaking to actual F1 pilots to get feedback for the sim and I’m sure they are speaking to engineers or using their data to input in the sim as well. This is still in early access and they are making changes with each patch as well as releasing other variants of this fighter! Personally, I find the Mirage F1EE to handle very well since its release to the public. I use to fly all kinds of various aircraft with my instructor. I was lucky enough to have a instructor who was in charge of Tampa air traffic control & who was friends with all kinds of wonderful pilots and he always grabbed me to help him with different task! We got to transfer aircraft for people who moved or sold their aircraft and we would deliver them. He took me under his wing for some reason & we became good friends! We also got to fly with the CEO of the charter jet company out of Clearwater on all kinds of wonderful aircraft like my favorite Beechcraft King Air & I was very fortunate to be friends with these guys! My point is that if you haven't flown in a high performance military aircraft like the F1 or other kinds of high performance aircraft you can’’t know how they fly or what little inputs pilots do when they fly them. To watch a video and then say the F1 isn’t   performing right is ridicules! So far the F1 flies pretty good especially since 2.9  was released and I think it’s come a long way for the better since its first release. It is hard to handle on the ground when taxiing or rolling down the runway but so does the F16! Wait until it is OUT of early release to critique flight performance. If you have actual data comparisons send them to the developer and discuss it with them. In other words let the pro’s do their job. So far I’d say this Mirage F1 is looking good, handles well and is a fantastic bargain! I think they’re the only company that offers 4 different versions for the price of One! Anyway I’m not saying any of this to be mean or sarcastic in any way! I understand what your trying to imply, I just don’t think its a fair or good idea to watch a video and make comparisons to what we have in DCS or how the F1 is or is not doing correctly. I don’t think thats a good idea at all. I Hope that came across okay & please don’t take offense to this, I mean this with all do respect. Thanks

Edited November 4, 2023 by Ebphoto