Does the A-10 have complete 'Cold and Dark' mode ie. no fuel, no armaments, everything off, etc.

[bofhlusr]

If the mode is available, how does one ask for fuel and ammo since the radios don't work?

[razo+r]

You open the canopy and use the comms menu to rearm and refuel as normal.

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by razo+r

[cfrag]

Turn on the battery. Radios work on electricity.

[jaylw314]

With the battery on and no APU, the UHF radio works (the VHF radios do not).

With the APU and APU GEN on, all radios work

As mentioned above, with the canopy open, you can still bring up the comms menu with the any comms keybind and request from the ground crew.

Edited January 18, 2023 by jaylw314

[bofhlusr]

I'm curious. At the beginning of the day, IRL the plane is parked and presumably the canopy is closed (in case it rains) and presumably may not contain any fuel. How is the canopy opened then to turn on the battery?

Also, after checking several checklists, I'm still not clear on the timing at start-up.  AT what point in time are weapons loaded, before or after the engines are started? Wouldn't it be dangerous to load weapons after an engine starts?

[razo+r]

2 minutes ago, bofhlusr said:

I'm curious. At the beginning of the day, IRL the plane is parked and presumably the canopy is closed (in case it rains) and presumably may not contain any fuel. How is the canopy opened then to turn on the battery?

Also, after checking several checklists, I'm still not clear on the timing at start-up.  AT what point in time are weapons loaded, before or after the engines are started? Wouldn't it be dangerous to load weapons after an engine starts?

Usually there is a switch on the outside of the aircraft in a panel or under a cover with which you can open the canopy from the outside.

Also, it might depend on the country but in my country the jets were always fully fueled after they landed/ before they were going on a sortie again.

Weapons are loaded way before the pilot gets to the aircraft in real life. In DCS it doesn't matter. You can rearm whenever you want.

Edited January 18, 2023 by razo+r

[jaylw314]

20 minutes ago, bofhlusr said:

I'm curious. At the beginning of the day, IRL the plane is parked and presumably the canopy is closed (in case it rains) and presumably may not contain any fuel. How is the canopy opened then to turn on the battery?

Also, after checking several checklists, I'm still not clear on the timing at start-up.  AT what point in time are weapons loaded, before or after the engines are started? Wouldn't it be dangerous to load weapons after an engine starts?

AFAIK the canopy is on an essential electric bus that does not require the battery switch to be on.  There's an external canopy switch next to the boarding ladder.

[bofhlusr]

I created a keybind for opening the ladder door and extending the ladder. How do I store or retract the ladder and close the ladder door?

 

[jaylw314]

19 minutes ago, bofhlusr said:

I created a keybind for opening the ladder door and extending the ladder. How do I store or retract the ladder and close the ladder door?

Those can only be done by the ground crew, so there is no keybind.  You have to use the comms menu.

I spoke with someone who worked on A-10's, and he said the pilots should not extend the boarding ladder, the ground crew should.  I suspect they're worried about the ladder getting damaged from dropping

Edited January 18, 2023 by jaylw314

[bofhlusr]

Wow. You know a lot. And I'm learning a lot from you. Thank you very much.

[King39]

 

4 hours ago, bofhlusr said:

I'm curious. At the beginning of the day, IRL the plane is parked and presumably the canopy is closed (in case it rains) and presumably may not contain any fuel. How is the canopy opened then to turn on the battery?

Just curious, "IRL" What squadron did you fly in or were you maintenance.? And, IRL, all aviation aircraft, civilian and military, are refueled just after shutdown to prevent the accumulation of water in the tanks... IRL.

Edited January 19, 2023 by King39

[ASAP]

5 hours ago, bofhlusr said:

I'm curious. At the beginning of the day, IRL the plane is parked and presumably the canopy is closed (in case it rains) and presumably may not contain any fuel. How is the canopy opened then to turn on the battery?

Also, after checking several checklists, I'm still not clear on the timing at start-up.  AT what point in time are weapons loaded, before or after the engines are started? Wouldn't it be dangerous to load weapons after an engine starts?

All that stuff is done before the pilot gets to the jet. The airplanes are typically refueled immediatley after they land and shutdown so water vapor can't condense in empty tanks. Weapons are loaded sometime prior. The pilot does not come out to the jet until maintenance calls ops and lets them know the jet is ready.

Also their is an external battery switch that powers the canopy actuator and a couple of other systems.

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Those can only be done by the ground crew, so there is no keybind.  You have to use the comms menu.

I spoke with someone who worked on A-10's, and he said the pilots should not extend the boarding ladder, the ground crew should.  I suspect they're worried about the ladder getting damaged from dropping

 

The ladder drops either way. Crewchiefs can lower it down slowly but its just a telescoping metal pipe. Pilots open it all the time from inside the cockpit if they are cross country and there is no A-10 crew chief to catch the jet. I've seen a pilot do a really awkward move where they left one of their feet hanging to catch the bottom rung of the ladder and raise it himself as he climbed up the jet. It was super awkward looking though, and i'm guessing its not normal.

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

AFAIK the canopy is on an essential electric bus that does not require the battery switch to be on.  There's an external canopy switch next to the boarding ladder.

theres an external battery switch that powers the essential electric bus. The crew chief turns it on before the pilot gets to the jet.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Jeb said:

43 years and I have never heard a thing like that, 23 military and another 20 civilan aviation. how exactly is (water vapor) going to get in a internal tank? 

Fuel tanks are generally vented, otherwise, how could you draw fuel from a fuel tank without forming a vacuum in it? Those vents can 'breathe' with daily temperature changes in a partially filled tank, pulling in humid air from outside and condensing its water inside the tank. The more air in the tank, the more volume it 'breathes'.

The A-10 internal tanks all have vents that lead to a small vent tank in the left fuel tank, then outside.  The liquid fuel and water that collects in it would drain back to the wing tanks.  I have no idea how much condensation this system has to deal with, or whether it's even an issue with the A-10 specifically, though

[unlikely_spider]

2 hours ago, Jeb said:

43 years and I have never heard a thing like that, 23 military and another 20 civilan aviation. how exactly is (water vapor) going to get in a internal tank? 

 

 

So you have been doing preflight checks for 43 years but not checking for water in your preflight fuel samples? Or do you just simply skip over that whole item in the preflight checklist?

 

[ASAP]

4 hours ago, Jeb said:

43 years and I have never heard a thing like that, 23 military and another 20 civilan aviation. how exactly is (water vapor) going to get in a internal tank? 

 

 

because when fuel leaves the tank it is replaced by air. Even with tank inerting there is some amount of water vapor that is in the air. When gasses get colder they can hold less water molecules and they condense. That’s certainly not the only reason to keep tanks filled. Overall convenience for the maintenance squadron and having he jet ready for the next go is also a big reason. 

here’s a link to a website where you can read all about fuel contamination. (https://www.aircraftsystemstech.com/2017/04/aircraft-fuel-system-servicing.html#:~:text=The water vapor in the vapor space above,However%2C time is required for this to happen.)In the military this is more an issue for POL guys and maintenance to worry about than line pilots. Most civilian guys starting out in small planes are used to regularly checking the fuel sumps pre flight specificity looking for water and other contaminants.

here is the relevant paragraph from that link if you don’t feel like clicking on. The bold font for emphasis is my own:

“water can enter a fuel system via condensation. The water vapor in the vapor space above the liquid fuel in a fuel tank condenses when the temperature changes. It normally sinks to the bottom of the fuel tank into the sump where it can be drained off before flight. [Figure 1] However, time is required for this to happen. On some aircraft, a large amount of fuel needs to be drained before settled water reaches the drain valve. Awareness of this type of sump idiosyncrasy for a particular aircraft is important. The condition of the fuel and recent fueling practices need to be considered and are equally important. If the aircraft has been flown often and filled immediately after flight, there is little reason to suspect water contamination beyond what would be exposed during a routine sumping.An aircraft that has sat for a long period of time with partially full fuel tanks is a cause of concern”

1 hour ago, unlikely_spider said:

So you have been doing preflight checks for 43 years but not checking for water in your preflight fuel samples? Or do you just simply skip over that whole item in the preflight checklist?

 

To be fair a military pilot wouldn’t check this. The crew chief and fuels guys worry about all this. I’d wager airline pilots also aren’t taking their own fuel samples either

Edited January 31, 2023 by ASAP

[unlikely_spider]

32 minutes ago, ASAP said:

To be fair a military pilot wouldn’t check this. The crew chief and fuels guys worry about all this. I’d wager airline pilots also aren’t taking their own fuel samples either

Yeah, makes sense. However I thought that the danger of water in the fuel lines was a pretty basic knowledge item. I've never been in the military or flown a jet, but for the three types of GA planes that I have flown, (all with different engines), taking a fuel sample is part of the preflight. And water in the sample is one of the three things I'm looking for (along with color and particulates). I thought it would be something that's common knowledge among aviators.

In addition to the condensation you mentioned, other culprits can be old/cracked seals, fuel caps not secure, or contaminated fuel from the source.

[ASAP]

24 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

Yeah, makes sense. However I thought that the danger of water in the fuel lines was a pretty basic knowledge item. I've never been in the military or flown a jet, but for the three types of GA planes that I have flown, (all with different engines), taking a fuel sample is part of the preflight. And water in the sample is one of the three things I'm looking for (along with color and particulates). I thought it would be something that's common knowledge among aviators.

In addition to the condensation you mentioned, other culprits can be old/cracked seals, fuel caps not secure, or contaminated fuel from the source.

Not sure how it is in other Services but the Air Force have POL guys (petroleum, oil, lubricants) that have to take samples from all the fuel tanks and analyze samples taken from the jet on a regular schedule to make sure the fuel is good to go, that way the pilot can focus on killing bad guys. 
 

To be clear I have no idea how quickly water contamination would be an issue in the A-10 (if at all) or any other jet, or how often the fuel gets sampled. I have just always heard that as a general best practice for any aircraft is to leave it with the tanks full.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, ASAP said:

If the aircraft has been flown often and filled immediately after flight, there is little reason to suspect water contamination beyond what would be exposed during a routine sumping.An aircraft that has sat for a long period of time with partially full fuel tanks is a cause of concern”

 

 

In fairness, it is perfectly possible to get water contamination with an aircraft refueled immediately after flight, since most cases of significant contamination I've heard of are due to either fueling with contaminated fuel, or environmental stuff like leaky fuel caps in the rain.

[ASAP]

38 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

In fairness, it is perfectly possible to get water contamination with an aircraft refueled immediately after flight, since most cases of significant contamination I've heard of are due to either fueling with contaminated fuel, or environmental stuff like leaky fuel caps in the rain.

True. I would imagine the fuel trucks and equipment probably have some inspection schedule or something to minimize that risk. Immediate refueling is just one way to help mitigate the risk, not the end all be all. I remember reading there were numerous F-86 crashes in the Korean War because of water contamination in the fuel trucks but I can’t remember specifics and my google search is coming up empty *shrug*. 

[ASAP]

12 hours ago, Jeb said:

a 747-400 holds 228klbs of fuel, a 727 holds 53klbs of fuel, light business jets hold 5-10klbs of fuel. civilian operators dont refuel after flight and uploading 200klbs of fuel after the acft has been sitting for days or even weeks in say florida would have a bunch of water but in fact it does not. military at least the navy and army do not refuel after flight, but they also take samples after refueling from all the low points, I have looked at thousands of samples from acft that have been sitting for months and even days and asked the chief personally if the sample was dumped or is this the clean fuel,  and in the airlines fuel is never sumped even with million of pounds of fuel uploaded. General aviation is a different monster all together..

 

I was able to find a copy of the A-10 dash 1 online. Not allowed to repost it here, but the first line of the section on servicing has a note that says to refuel the tanks immediately after flight to the max extent possible to avoid the issue of water condensation. The Air Force does routinely refuel the jets after flight. I’m sure it’s a very overly conservative precaution.

also this solution is obviously only practical for small airplanes that always take off with a full tank of gas. It obviously wouldn’t make any sense to do this with an airliner. That’d use so much fuel and also the airplane would be well over max weight in many configurations. I’m sure they solve the problem a different way for jets that sit around and don’t fly for long periods of time.

Edited February 2, 2023 by ASAP

[Gasman6]

19 hours ago, Jeb said:

a 747-400 holds 228klbs of fuel, a 727 holds 53klbs of fuel, light business jets hold 5-10klbs of fuel. civilian operators dont refuel after flight and uploading 200klbs of fuel after the acft has been sitting for days or even weeks in say florida would have a bunch of water but in fact it does not. military at least the navy and army do not refuel after flight, but they also take samples after refueling from all the low points, I have looked at thousands of samples from acft that have been sitting for months and even days and asked the chief personally if the sample was dumped or is this the clean fuel,  and in the airlines fuel is never sumped even with million of pounds of fuel uploaded. General aviation is a different monster all together..

 

And military aviation is a different monster from civilian aviation.

 

I don't know your experience or your training, and I certainly don't have any relevant experience to speak from on this subject myself. But taking @ASAP's comment at face value that he read the A-10 is refueled after every flight in a manual, it is probably for some operational precedent that revolves around combat readiness and low turnover. Considering the A-10 can be "hot" fueled and rearmed (meaning the pilot never has to shut down the engines while the ground crews scramble to get the plane ready to go), quick turnaround seems to be a philosophy that the USAF had in mind when developing SOPs related to this airframe.

 

I don't know that this is true, it's merely speculation on my part, but that seems to be another good explanation for why the Air Force would refuel their A-10s as a matter of course, whether or not they were going up again immediately. It streamlines procedure and gets the "ramp rats" in a habit of doing the same thing, the same way, every time.

 

Just a guess.

[bofhlusr]

If the A-10 is refueled after every landing, then how much do they put in?  Do they remove fuel when it turns out that the plane's mission changed and it'll have to carry a heavier load? How is fuel removed to make room for a heavier loadout? 

[ASAP]

My understanding is that they are taking off with full gas unless the weight is a factor for a safe takeoff. If they have to offload fuel they’d hook a fuel truck up to the single point refueling port and offload fuel.