TEMPEST.114 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 From every test/calculation and spot test I've made for months, there is zero modelling of wind, other than a gradient vector applied constantly at the same height all over the map. Buildings, mountains and other 'terrain' make zero difference to wind or turbulence. It seems even when there is a turbulence i.e. burble - it's a manufactured one and not because of the wind direction, strength or size/shape of the island on the carrier. This means that even hiding behind a skyscraper you still get wind 'blowing' you 'through' the skyscraper. Is this ever going to be addressed? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speed-of-heat Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 (edited) Bear in mind that such a calculation is likely to be computationally expensive... Like wake turbulence but with many more factors modelled, it becomes quite complex to deliver in anyway real-time, and that's in single player, you would also want to do so in multilayer which would be additionally complex... I suspect that the prerequisite would be the availability of sufficient resources such as say the ability to utilise a large number of the available cores I a modern cpu for such calculations... the initial multi core work, is essentially very basic in this regard. Edited January 22, 2023 by speed-of-heat 2 SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware Intel Corei7-12700KF @ 5.1/5.3p & 3.8e GHz, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Dell S2716DG, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WipeUout Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 Have you tried also going over the top of mountains? There is a bit of wind effect I noticed when flying close to mountain top. Nevertheless, I must agree with @speed-of-heat, this would require so much resources to simulate and I don't think we are there yet with the present code and even hardware capabilities. 2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ i9-13900K, RTX 4090, 64GB, ADDLINK S72 2TB, TM WARTHOG COMBO + PENDULAR RUDDER PEDALS, PIMAX 8K X, Sony 5.1 Spks+SubW | DCS OB, A-10C_II, AH-64D, F-14/16/18, F-86F, AV-8B, M-2000C, SA342, Huey, Spitfire, FC3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durham Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Here is the code to determine the wind direction and heading at two points - one a vehicle on the windward side of the mountain, the other on the leeward. --functions region function round( x ) local f = math.floor( x ) if (x - f) < 0.5 then --round down return f else return f + 1 --round up end end--function round function getHeading( windVector ) local result = 0 local heading = math.atan2( windVector.z, windVector.x ) --default_output_file:write("Done heading math!\n") if heading < 0 then heading = heading + 2 * math.pi --put heading in the range of 0 to 2 pi end heading = heading * ( 180 / math.pi ) --convert radians to degrees result = round( heading ) --spin the heading by 180 to conform with aviation norms! if result > 180 then result = result -180 else result = result + 180 end return result end --getHeading function getSpeed( windVector ) local result = 0 local speed = (windVector.x^2 + windVector.y^2 + windVector.z^2)^0.5 --m/s speed = speed * 1.94384 --to knots result = round( speed ) return result end --getSpeed --say you're starting trigger.action.outText('WindTest starting...' , 5 , true) --get the location of each of the units --groups local unitWindward = Unit.getByName('Windward-1') local unitLeeward = Unit.getByName('Leeward-1') --positions - vec3 local posWindward = unitWindward:getPosition().p local posLeeward = unitLeeward:getPosition().p --log write the positions log.write('WINDTEST', log.INFO, 'Pos_Windward: x = '..posWindward.x..'; y = '..posWindward.y..'; z = '..posWindward.z..'.') log.write('WINDTEST', log.INFO, 'Pos_Leeward: x = '..posLeeward.x..'; y = '..posLeeward.y..'; z = '..posLeeward.z..'.') --increase the altitudes by 10m posWindward.y = posWindward.y + 10 posLeeward.y = posLeeward.y + 10 --surface heights - number - currently unused --[[ local heightWindward = --land.getHeight(posWindward.x, posWindward.z) local heightLeeward = --land.getHeight(posLeeward.x, posLeeward.z) log.write('WINDTEST', log.INFO, 'height_Windward: = '..heightWindward..'.') log.write('WINDTEST', log.INFO, 'height_Leeward: = '..heightLeeward..'.') ]]-- --winds - vec3 - for the two units local windWindward = atmosphere.getWind(posWindward) local windLeeward = atmosphere.getWind(posLeeward) --windspeed and heading for the two units local windspeedWindward = getSpeed( windWindward ) local windspeedLeeward = getSpeed( windLeeward ) local windHeadingWindward = getHeading( windWindward ) local windHeadingLeeward = getHeading( windLeeward ) --log.write the results of the loop log.write('WINDTEST', log.INFO, 'Wind_Windward: x = '..windWindward.x..'; y = '..windWindward.y..'; z = '..windWindward.z..'.') log.write('WINDTEST', log.INFO, 'Wind_Leeward: x = '..windLeeward.x..'; y = '..windLeeward.y..'; z = '..windLeeward.z..'.') --log.write speed and heading log.write('WINDTEST', log.INFO, 'Wind_Windward: heading (deg) = '..windHeadingWindward..'; speed (kts) = '..windspeedWindward..'.') log.write('WINDTEST', log.INFO, 'Wind_Leeward: heading (deg) = '..windHeadingLeeward..'; speed (kts)= '..windspeedLeeward..'.') --write results to user trigger.action.outText('Wind_Windward: heading (deg) = '..windHeadingWindward..'; speed (kts) = '..windspeedWindward..'.', 5 , false) trigger.action.outText('Wind_Leeward: heading (deg) = '..windHeadingLeeward..'; speed (kts)= '..windspeedLeeward..'.', 5 , false) --say you're done trigger.action.outText('WindTest completed.' , 5 , false) WindTest.lua 4 KB Here are the log results: 2023-01-22 02:30:47.957 INFO WINDTEST (Main): Wind_Windward: x = -20.213688330495; y = 0; z = 32.348655590497. 2023-01-22 02:30:47.957 INFO WINDTEST (Main): Wind_Leeward: x = -20.66910287424; y = 0; z = 33.077471069346. 2023-01-22 02:30:47.957 INFO WINDTEST (Main): Wind_Windward: heading (deg) = 302; speed (kts) = 74. 2023-01-22 02:30:47.957 INFO WINDTEST (Main): Wind_Leeward: heading (deg) = 302; speed (kts)= 76. So even with a big mountain between the two the windspeed is identical, give or take the 2kts because one unit is higher than the other. I agree with the previous comments that computing this only the fly is going to be ridiculously expensive, however, as the wind doesn't change over time, other than the altitude slope, then could pre-compute with mission load? WindTest_NTTR.miz 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 If you want CFD on terrain and cities, yes real wind is expensive, but that's not the only option. The terrain can be broken up into large grids classified roughly as moutains, plains, city, etc and have different wind effects modeled. Also, X-Plane and MSFS model this for terrain. 5 Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durham Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, Exorcet said: If you want CFD on terrain and cities, yes real wind is expensive, but that's not the only option. The terrain can be broken up into large grids classified roughly as moutains, plains, city, etc and have different wind effects modeled. Also, X-Plane and MSFS model this for terrain. And they likely pre-compute on mission/session load? So chat with Austin required? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 9 hours ago, Durham said: And they likely pre-compute on mission/session load? So chat with Austin required? X Plane can use live weahter (I think MSFS can too) so I don't think the wind interacting with terrain is fixed, but dynamic like the rest of weather. I should also clarify that when I said the other sims model "this", I was referring to wind over terrain, not the grid method I was suggesting. The grid method would make sense to precompute currently since DCS doesn't have varying weather. 3 Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEMPEST.114 Posted January 24, 2023 Author Share Posted January 24, 2023 On 1/22/2023 at 2:26 AM, speed-of-heat said: Bear in mind that such a calculation is likely to be computationally expensive... Like wake turbulence but with many more factors modelled, it becomes quite complex to deliver in anyway real-time, and that's in single player, you would also want to do so in multilayer which would be additionally complex... I suspect that the prerequisite would be the availability of sufficient resources such as say the ability to utilise a large number of the available cores I a modern cpu for such calculations... the initial multi core work, is essentially very basic in this regard. Nonsense. XPlane, MSFS and Condor 2 can do a very good job of wind with no hit to performance. Again, binary thinking doesn't get anyone anywhere. 1 hour ago, Exorcet said: X Plane can use live weahter (I think MSFS can too) so I don't think the wind interacting with terrain is fixed, but dynamic like the rest of weather. I should also clarify that when I said the other sims model "this", I was referring to wind over terrain, not the grid method I was suggesting. The grid method would make sense to precompute currently since DCS doesn't have varying weather. It does have varying wx now. The clouds, precipitation etc move over the map. Thus it should change the wind over land / buildings. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germane Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Yeah thats a very important topic for me. I hope for a much better simulation in the future! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WipeUout Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 5 hours ago, Elphaba said: Nonsense. XPlane, MSFS and Condor 2 can do a very good job of wind with no hit to performance. Again, binary thinking doesn't get anyone anywhere. I believe that DCS does much more as far as simulation of other stuff such as weapon, enemy AI, troop movement, radars, etc... Very different sims! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ i9-13900K, RTX 4090, 64GB, ADDLINK S72 2TB, TM WARTHOG COMBO + PENDULAR RUDDER PEDALS, PIMAX 8K X, Sony 5.1 Spks+SubW | DCS OB, A-10C_II, AH-64D, F-14/16/18, F-86F, AV-8B, M-2000C, SA342, Huey, Spitfire, FC3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEMPEST.114 Posted January 24, 2023 Author Share Posted January 24, 2023 1 minute ago, WipeUout said: I believe that DCS does much more as far as simulation of other stuff such as weapon, enemy AI, troop movement, radars, etc... Very different sims! Binary thinking fails again. Windage AFFECTS dropping bombs, straffing, landing, hovering, canyon flying low level... basically EVERYTHING IN DCS. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Like Elphaba I, too, would like to see better modeling of the medium we “fly” through. Hopefully things can start moving in that direction in the not too distant future. 3 YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WipeUout Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 13 hours ago, Elphaba said: Binary thinking fails again. Windage AFFECTS dropping bombs, straffing, landing, hovering, canyon flying low level... basically EVERYTHING IN DCS. Thinking alone fails again. What is being simulated in MSFS, X Planer etc.. is much less demanding than a FULL COMBAT SANDBOX like DCS. Adding yet another dimension like weather modeling, would for sure be cool and increase realism but at a cost that would result in even less performance. It already takes a top rig to run DCS in VR, last thing we need is more stuff being simulated. DCS needs to first solve performance and then look at cranking additional realism or whatever the customer wants next. 2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ i9-13900K, RTX 4090, 64GB, ADDLINK S72 2TB, TM WARTHOG COMBO + PENDULAR RUDDER PEDALS, PIMAX 8K X, Sony 5.1 Spks+SubW | DCS OB, A-10C_II, AH-64D, F-14/16/18, F-86F, AV-8B, M-2000C, SA342, Huey, Spitfire, FC3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreste Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 If you say it is too much to calculate low altitude or mountain crest turbulence then so is wake turbulence. They gave us wake turbulence and now we wonder if we can also have other types of effects, it was obvious that would happen I hope so much, especially the currents that form near the crests of the mountains and at very low altitudes. 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]My dream: DCS Tornado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconus Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 MT is out, you can use 1 or 2 threads for the winds, clouds and other atmosphere stuff. 1 Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060 Rift S T16000M TWCS TFRP FC3 F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lace Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 36 minutes ago, draconus said: MT is out, you can use 1 or 2 threads for the winds, clouds and other atmosphere stuff. This is the ideal solution (and add in water swell, chop and current effects for good measure). 1 Laptop Pilot. Alienware X17, i9 11980HK 5.0GHz, 16GB RTX 3080, 64GB DDR4 3200MHz, NVMe SSD. 2x TM Warthog, Hornet grip, Virpil CM2 & TPR pedals, FSSB-R3, Cougar throttle, Viper pit WIP (XBox360 when traveling). Rift S. NTTR, SoH, Syria, Sinai, Channel, South Atlantic, CA, Supercarrier, FC3, A-10CII, F-5, F-14, F-15E, F-16, F/A-18, F-86, Harrier, M2000, F1, Viggen, MiG-21, Yak-52, L-39, MB-339, CE2, Gazelle, Ka-50, Mi-8, Mi-24, Huey, Apache, Spitfire, Mossie. Wishlist: Tornado, Jaguar, Buccaneer, F-117 and F-111. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstnj Posted April 27, 2023 Share Posted April 27, 2023 (edited) On 1/21/2023 at 9:26 PM, speed-of-heat said: Bear in mind that such a calculation is likely to be computationally expensive... Like wake turbulence but with many more factors modelled, it becomes quite complex to deliver in anyway real-time, and that's in single player, you would also want to do so in multilayer which would be additionally complex... I suspect that the prerequisite would be the availability of sufficient resources such as say the ability to utilise a large number of the available cores I a modern cpu for such calculations... the initial multi core work, is essentially very basic in this regard. multiplayer does not complicate this at all. The local "sandbox" of weather must to be the same, yes... but its fine if one player has a gust decoupled from another. That's perfectly fine compromise. MSFS and even Xplane 11 has been doing this for years on hardware a decade old. Edited April 28, 2023 by jstnj 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whirley Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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