Is waypoint offset for navigation possible?

[bones1014]

I'm talking straight navigation, not VIP or VRP for ground attack.

[skywalker22]

Chuck's manual, on page 688-690. It's all there.

[bones1014]

5 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Chuck's manual, on page 688-690. It's all there.

that's just inputting and editing steer points. Not offset.

[skywalker22]

What is your purpose of using off-set? You can always you Markpoints (using hud, tgp,..)

[bones1014]

You can use waypoint and TACAN offset in other planes. Just want to know if it's possible. Another tool.

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[void68]

On 2/12/2023 at 2:21 PM, skywalker22 said:

What is your purpose of using off-set? You can always you Markpoints (using hud, tgp,..)

Simple setting: You got a target coordinate as a waypoint. You go in lowest level, no chance for TGP to scan the area. You use a weapon in PRE mode. While you are close to the target you eyeball the target area and notice the target(s) are actually off around 1500' to the southsouthwest. With a scan zone of 500*1500ft² of the CBU105 no BLU/skeet will reach the target. What do yo do now? Do trigonometrics and add the coordinates to a new STPT? I don't know, but low level and doing calculations on a calculator may be a bad decision.

Or just edit your already active WP to "offset 200° 1500'"?

 

While I find VRP and VIP less useful a target offset input would be ideal.

Edited February 14, 2023 by void68

[Yannick Pancake]

Irc, you can move your tgt point for ccrp with the tdc switch...

[skywalker22]

5 hours ago, void68 said:

Simple setting: You got a target coordinate as a waypoint. You go in lowest level, no chance for TGP to scan the area. You use a weapon in PRE mode. While you are close to the target you eyeball the target area and notice the target(s) are actually off around 1500' to the southsouthwest. With a scan zone of 500*1500ft² of the CBU105 no BLU/skeet will reach the target. What do yo do now? Do trigonometrics and add the coordinates to a new STPT? I don't know, but low level and doing calculations on a calculator may be a bad decision.

Or just edit your already active WP to "offset 200° 1500'"?

 

While I find VRP and VIP less useful a target offset input would be ideal.

 

Wouldn't be easier to use HUD (HMCS) as SOI and create a new Markpoint over target, which is offset of waypoint, and for fine tuning use of TGP?

At least this is how I do it. I doubt there is any easier way.

Edited February 14, 2023 by skywalker22

[WHOGX5]

On 2/13/2023 at 2:07 PM, bones1014 said:

You can use waypoint and TACAN offset in other planes. Just want to know if it's possible. Another tool.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
 

You can add two different offset aimpoints to each steerpoint which are visible both through your HUD and JHMCS. You cannot add offsets to TACAN beacons in the F-16C, you can only add them to steerpoints.

[bones1014]

On 2/14/2023 at 7:45 AM, void68 said:

Simple setting: You got a target coordinate as a waypoint. You go in lowest level, no chance for TGP to scan the area. You use a weapon in PRE mode. While you are close to the target you eyeball the target area and notice the target(s) are actually off around 1500' to the southsouthwest. With a scan zone of 500*1500ft² of the CBU105 no BLU/skeet will reach the target. What do yo do now? Do trigonometrics and add the coordinates to a new STPT? I don't know, but low level and doing calculations on a calculator may be a bad decision.

Or just edit your already active WP to "offset 200° 1500'"?

 

While I find VRP and VIP less useful a target offset input would be ideal.

 

I'm thinking high altitude interception. You have bullseye and target intercept or CAP area could be called bearing and range from bulls.

[void68]

On 2/14/2023 at 7:36 PM, skywalker22 said:

Wouldn't be easier to use HUD (HMCS) as SOI and create a new Markpoint over target, which is offset of waypoint, and for fine tuning use of TGP?

At least this is how I do it. I doubt there is any easier way.

 

Yes, of course. However in my setting the pilot has no LOS on target, so no HUD, no TGP at that altitude. Ground units tell him "bombs fall 300' short of target to the south". My idea: move SOI 300' to the north.

[TheBigTatanka]

Use your eyes and drop in a visual mode. The F-16 is designed for visual bombing and can also bomb at night.

If you want all weather (no visibility) attack, you need something like the strike eagle.

I'm not saying you can't do an attack in the weather or without visibility of the target in the F-16, but it's not really what it was designed for, so you're asking a lot of the jet. Offset aimpoints could work for such a thing, but it seems unlikely to happen. For a low level CAS in a major combat operation, you're going to be dropping visually. For everything else, your target will be stationary. Hope that helps cage what expectations should be for the jet.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

[bones1014]

My question has nothing to do with ground attack. There is already VIP and VRP for that. What I'm asking must not be possible if the conversation keeps migrating to ground attack.

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, bones1014 said:

My question has nothing to do with ground attack. There is already VIP and VRP for that. What I'm asking must not be possible if the conversation keeps migrating to ground attack.

Offsets are not used the same way in different aircraft types. I think what may be leading to confusion amongst the responses this thread has received is the fact that the F-16's Offset Aimpoints are used for ground attack, not air-to-air engagements or navigation. As such, what you are asking is not possible, since navigation can be performed to steerpoints but not offset aimpoints.

The primary cockpit methods for coordinating air-to-air engagements against hostile aircraft would be using the FCR cursor in addition to the HSD cursor and graphics. You can see examples of this in the manual in the Tactical Systems chapter under "Bullseye" Reference Point.

However, like Offset Aimpoints, Bullseye is used for broad situational awareness or for cueing long range radar scans to geographical areas, not for navigation. If you are looking for some sort of navigational reference to a fixed position relative to Bullseye, the best solution you can use is set your selected steerpoint to the Bullseye steerpoint (typically 25), and then use the Course knob on the EHSI (in NAV mode) to set the azimuth from Bullseye. This can be used in a similar fashion to a TACAN radial, in that you can see when you are at the appropriate distance from the Bullseye steerpoint along the bearing from Bullseye, but you won't be able to get direct navigation to that precise location. You can get a much better idea of where you need to go by using the HSD cursor, and compare its position relative to other HSD graphics like the range rings, cardinal directions, and the Bullseye symbol.

But if you are doing air-to-air intercepts, the primary focus should be to simply move your FCR cursor to the corresponding bullseye location and search for targets there. If the location is not within range of your radar, simply fly toward that location on your FCR or HSD until it is.

[LastRifleRound]

On 2/18/2023 at 5:16 PM, TheBigTatanka said:

Use your eyes and drop in a visual mode. The F-16 is designed for visual bombing and can also bomb at night.

If you want all weather (no visibility) attack, you need something like the strike eagle.

I'm not saying you can't do an attack in the weather or without visibility of the target in the F-16, but it's not really what it was designed for, so you're asking a lot of the jet. Offset aimpoints could work for such a thing, but it seems unlikely to happen. For a low level CAS in a major combat operation, you're going to be dropping visually. For everything else, your target will be stationary. Hope that helps cage what expectations should be for the jet.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
 

This isn't really an argument against an offset aimpoint. An offset aimpoint is used to make sure your attack geometry is correct at roll in. It just has to get you close enough that when you nose down you'll be close enough to the right vector to get on target. An offset aimpoint is meant to aid a visual attack, not replace it.

With always perfect coordinates and GPS that never fails, there aren't many scenarios outside of some weird vectoring situation from a third party that would use it in DCS. If you went no GPS, iron bombs, and gave a long enough flight to accumulate drift, and wanted to execute a pop up from low level or a mid-altitude attack on a target that is difficult to visually acquire (think Osirik reactor strike or some such), an offset aimpoint (or in the Osirik case VIP) is an excellent tool.

As for OP, the function you seek does not exist in this jet.

[AvroLanc]

20 hours ago, LastRifleRound said:

This isn't really an argument against an offset aimpoint. An offset aimpoint is used to make sure your attack geometry is correct at roll in. It just has to get you close enough that when you nose down you'll be close enough to the right vector to get on target. An offset aimpoint is meant to aid a visual attack, not replace it.

With always perfect coordinates and GPS that never fails, there aren't many scenarios outside of some weird vectoring situation from a third party that would use it in DCS. If you went no GPS, iron bombs, and gave a long enough flight to accumulate drift, and wanted to execute a pop up from low level or a mid-altitude attack on a target that is difficult to visually acquire (think Osirik reactor strike or some such), an offset aimpoint (or in the Osirik case VIP) is an excellent tool.

As for OP, the function you seek does not exist in this jet.

Offset aim points in the F-16 are NOT designed for visual attacks. They are designed for use with the A/G radar in GM mode. In a pre-GPS day when INS could drift an offset allows you to make a blind attack on a non-radar significant target by slewing your sensor (radar) over a radar significant offset. 

VIP or VRP are for visual attacks, but these are different than OA’s. Same principle but visual rather than blind. 

OAs are broken in DCS anyway. Don’t use them for anything at the moment. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by AvroLanc

[LastRifleRound]

2 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

Offset aim points in the F-16 are NOT designed for visual attacks. They are designed for use with the A/G radar in GM mode. In a pre-GPS day when INS could drift an offset allows you to make a blind attack on a non-radar significant target by slewing your sensor (radar) over a radar significant offset. 

VIP or VRP are for visual attacks, but these are different than OA’s. Same principle but visual rather than blind. 

OAs are broken in DCS anyway. Don’t use them for anything at the moment. 

 

OAs are sighting in with a sensor, to line you up for a visual attack on a target that may be difficult to acquire visually to begin with.

The OA itself is not visual, but the attack on target often is.

[SickSidewinder9]

The short answer is yes.  It's done in the DED.

[AvroLanc]

6 hours ago, LastRifleRound said:

OAs are sighting in with a sensor, to line you up for a visual attack on a target that may be difficult to acquire visually to begin with.

The OA itself is not visual, but the attack on target often is.

Well it could be. But you could say that applies to any CCRP attack.   
You typical start in CCRP and transition to CCIP if the target is picked up visually, CCIP having the advantage of AGR slant ranging which CCRP lacks (in the F16). 
It’s not really the line up which OAs seek to solve……it’s the error in Steerpoint position caused by a drifting navigation system. Again radar Offsets are designed to be used in completely blind/night/imc conditions. VIP/VRP are the visual equivalent. 

6 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

The short answer is yes.  It's done in the DED.

Nope, the answer is no.

Offset Aimpoints in the F-16 are used differently. 

[LastRifleRound]

2 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

Well it could be. But you could say that applies to any CCRP attack.   
You typical start in CCRP and transition to CCIP if the target is picked up visually, CCIP having the advantage of AGR slant ranging which CCRP lacks (in the F16). 
It’s not really the line up which OAs seek to solve……it’s the error in Steerpoint position caused by a drifting navigation system. Again radar Offsets are designed to be used in completely blind/night/imc conditions. VIP/VRP are the visual equivalent. 

Nope, the answer is no.

Offset Aimpoints in the F-16 are used differently. 

How does an OA fix a steer point but not a line up?

[AvroLanc]

8 hours ago, LastRifleRound said:

How does an OA fix a steer point but not a line up?

Sorry but what do you mean by ‘line up’?  A simple left/right steering error? A specific pre planned attack heading? An attack run in referenced to a known ground location (IP)? Or the correct lat/long of the target? 

[SickSidewinder9]

On 3/1/2023 at 11:57 PM, AvroLanc said:

Well it could be. But you could say that applies to any CCRP attack.   
You typical start in CCRP and transition to CCIP if the target is picked up visually, CCIP having the advantage of AGR slant ranging which CCRP lacks (in the F16). 
It’s not really the line up which OAs seek to solve……it’s the error in Steerpoint position caused by a drifting navigation system. Again radar Offsets are designed to be used in completely blind/night/imc conditions. VIP/VRP are the visual equivalent. 

Nope, the answer is no.

Offset Aimpoints in the F-16 are used differently. 

ok then

[AvroLanc]

50 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

ok then

Glad I cleared it up for you. 

[RogueRunner]

I also like to know. Everybody falls back to ground attack points and such. From a pure navigation point of view, in the Mirage for instance you can tune to a TACAN channel and create an offset for 200 degress and 70nm and the INS will give you steering to follow to reach that point. Navigation beacons in the DCS world is sparse so it makes sense to make offset waypoints to enter a valley or some other point you want to fly to.

 

The Viper OA1 and OA2 can do this for waypoints but you can only enter feet which obviously makes the range an issue, you would most likely only be able to put in a few miles at best.

 

EDIT I guess with modern systems you do not need this much, it pertains more to older INS systems. Would still have been nice to do, for example if you get a bullseye call ffrom GCI for ground targets it would have been easy to program the offset from bullseye to get to that target

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by RogueRunner

[AvroLanc]

7 hours ago, RogueRunner said:

I also like to know. Everybody falls back to ground attack points and such. From a pure navigation point of view, in the Mirage for instance you can tune to a TACAN channel and create an offset for 200 degress and 70nm and the INS will give you steering to follow to reach that point. Navigation beacons in the DCS world is sparse so it makes sense to make offset waypoints to enter a valley or some other point you want to fly to.

 

The Viper OA1 and OA2 can do this for waypoints but you can only enter feet which obviously makes the range an issue, you would most likely only be able to put in a few miles at best.

 

EDIT I guess with modern systems you do not need this much, it pertains more to older INS systems. Would still have been nice to do, for example if you get a bullseye call ffrom GCI for ground targets it would have been easy to program the offset from bullseye to get to that target

 

 

This is not the use case for Offset points in the F-16. Typically BULLS calls are for Air-to-Air stuff. For a ground target the AWACS/JTAC/FAC/other agency would give a LAT LONG or Grid as part of a nine-line, you can put this into the nav system as a normal steerpoint. When working with a FAC/JTAC, you might use the VIP feature when the JTAC refers to an IP, but this would not be the Bullseye. OA1 and OA2 don't work how they should in DCS....they've been wrongly implemented, so I would avoid using them.