New "BUTTON_OFF" feature in DCS!

[scoobie]

(Wrong forum, but I don't know where else I should put it in.)

Oh, and sorry for the damned wall of text instead of screenshots - I don't have access to DCS here, so can't take screenshots.

 

Good day, folks!
I've been away for a while, so if this has been announced loud already - sorry for messing up the forums with my post.
If not - just a heads up for people who used to create a myriad of their own "else" commands missing in the original Lua files (default.lua etc. for control bindings). @Munkwolf @LeCuvier and many other people (myself included).
 

In one of the recent updates I incidentally noticed that ED implemented "OFF" commands for buttons. This patent is known from some other sims (or at least one I can think of), but hasn't been a thing in DCS so far. It's grand!
For a test go bind whatever joystick button to some control in the cockpit, say "Master Arm" in your favourite jet. ("Master Arm" will be my example throughout this post.)
Now, open the drop down list which now reads "JOY_BTN10" (or whatever button you have bound, maybe it's "JOY_BTN1") and look carefully at the list of available buttons - for each button on the list you now get two entries:
JOY_BTN10 (this one's obvious, nothing new here)
JOY_BTN10_OFF (new feature!)

Now you can abandon your "else" commands, such as "Master Arm ON else OFF", "Flaps UP else MVR", "Gear UP else DOWN" (etc.), which can often be found in "Special for joystick" category, at least if it's an ED module. Sometimes they have different names, because module authors have problems with consistency, sometimes such "else" command may be called like "Master Arm ON<>OFF", sometimes "Master Arm ON/OFF", you never know, but these are the type of commands tailored specifically for your physical LATCHING toggle switches of ON-OFF type, or 3-way latching switches of type ON-OFF-ON. All latching toogle switches on TM Warthog Throttle are of this type (either 2-way or 3-way). These "else" commands work like this: "As long as button X is held, the control in the cockpit is ON, otherwise it goes OFF". Mind you, they're NOT to be used with latching toggle switches of ON-ON (2-way) type or ON-ON-ON (3-way) type - these in turn need "stateful" commands, commands for separate positions, for example "Master Arm ON" and "Master Arm OFF". Such ON-ON switches can be found, for example, on Honeycomb Bravo Throttle Quadrant - those seven black rocker switches above the annunciator panel.

Why "_OFF" bindings are better? They work all the time, unlike "else" commands!
I don't know how to describe it well, but LeCuvier came up with the notion of "waking up the switches" - "else" commands sometimes make your latching toggle switches "go to sleep" and require you to then "wake them up". One scenario when this happens - at least on my PC - is this:

1. Let's say there's an "else" command for "Master arm ON else OFF". Bind it to a latching toggle switch, for example "EAC ARM/OFF" on your TM Warthog Throttle base. Now flick the switch up/forward into "ON" ("ARM") position. The toggle switch is now reported to Windows as in "ON" state. If you check the Windows Joystick window, the one with axes current positions and those round "red lamps" indicating button on/off states, with button numbers on them - your button must be now "illuminated" (red lamp must be on).
2. Jump out of the cockpit with F2.
3. Jump back in with F1.
4. Now flick the toggle switch down/aft into "OFF". The toggle switch must be reported to Windows in the OFF state ("red lamp" off).

Congratulations - your Master Arm in the cockpit didn't flick! The switch "went to sleep" or in other words, DCS didn't report state change from "ON" to "OFF". Sometimes it just doesn't do it (it may be due to some design decision which I don't understand, but it may be some kind of a bug). What you have to do in order to "wake the switch up" is to flick it up again into the "ON" position (even though it's not what you want), DCS always reports the state change from "OFF" to "ON" properly, and now flick the switch back down into "OFF".
Not very nice, especially when you have 10 or 20 such latching toggle switches in your hardware and all of them tend to "go to sleep" together.

Unfortunately I've noticed that on my PC my switches sometimes go to sleep also when I'm in the cockpit, without jumping out of it, I don't know exactly when and why it happens.
For this reason I was a bit grumpy about those "else" commands. Nothing wrong with them per se, but "going to sleep" is not something you may ever learn to like.

With "_OFF" bindings, your toggle switches NEVER go to sleep!
I'm in the process of re-binding whatever I've had from "else" commands to "_OFF" commands. Of course there must be "stateful" "ON" and "OFF" commands in the control assignments list for it to work. In most cases such commands are already there. So, following the "Master Arm ON else OFF" and "JOY_BTN10" example, I used to have it bound to:
"Master Arm ON else OFF": JOY_BTN10
I've rebound it to:
"Master Arm ON"  JOY_BTN10
"Master Arm OFF" JOY_BTN10_OFF

Another example - flaps UP/MID/DOWN (3 positions), let's say I have a 3-way latching toggle switch ON-OFF-ON and it's reported to Windows as JOY_BTN12 and JOY_BTN13. You probably had it bound to 2 "else" commands like this:
"Flaps UP else MID": JOY_BTN12
"Flaps DOWN else MID": JOY_BTN13
Now you can rebind it like this (if there are "stateful" commands prepared in the module):
"Flaps UP": JOY_BTN12
"Flaps DOWN": JOY_BTN13
"Flaps MID": JOY_BTN12_OFF; JOY_BTN13_OFF
Yes, you need to have two bindings for the middle position, because if your switch was in the "Flaps UP" and you flicked it to middle position, JOY_BTN12_OFF will be reported, while if you had flaps in "DOWN" position and flick it to middle, JOY_BTN13_OFF will be reported. Bear that in mind.

No more "asleep" controls!
Thanks, ED!
To the best of my (limited) knowledge, there wasn't even an anouncement in the DCS changelog about it and it's such an awesome feature! I'm in the middle of the process of removing my own "else" commands, I've had a zillion of them thrown in controls Lua files for so many modules.

Edited March 28, 2023 by scoobie

[LeCuvier]

Thanks for sharing this, @scoobie! I had no clue this was coming. Going forward, this may reduce the need for LUA editing.
I would have expected that you could select the OFF transition by flicking the switch from ON to OFF, but it doesn't  work that way (yet?).

But even so, it's a very welcome addition!

[98abaile]

It's been in for a while. I think it was mentioned (but not really explained) in a news letter.

[MilesD]

Thanks Scoobie!
I did not now about this either. 

 

[hannibal]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:19 AM, scoobie said:

(Wrong forum, but I don't know where else I should put it in.)

Oh, and sorry for the damned wall of text instead of screenshots - I don't have access to DCS here, so can't take screenshots.

 

Good day, folks!
I've been away for a while, so if this has been announced loud already - sorry for messing up the forums with my post.
If not - just a heads up for people who used to create a myriad of their own "else" commands missing in the original Lua files (default.lua etc. for control bindings). @Munkwolf @LeCuvier and many other people (myself included).
 

In one of the recent updates I incidentally noticed that ED implemented "OFF" commands for buttons. This patent is known from some other sims (or at least one I can think of), but hasn't been a thing in DCS so far. It's grand!
For a test go bind whatever joystick button to some control in the cockpit, say "Master Arm" in your favourite jet. ("Master Arm" will be my example throughout this post.)
Now, open the drop down list which now reads "JOY_BTN10" (or whatever button you have bound, maybe it's "JOY_BTN1") and look carefully at the list of available buttons - for each button on the list you now get two entries:
JOY_BTN10 (this one's obvious, nothing new here)
JOY_BTN10_OFF (new feature!)

Now you can abandon your "else" commands, such as "Master Arm ON else OFF", "Flaps UP else MVR", "Gear UP else DOWN" (etc.), which can often be found in "Special for joystick" category, at least if it's an ED module. Sometimes they have different names, because module authors have problems with consistency, sometimes such "else" command may be called like "Master Arm ON<>OFF", sometimes "Master Arm ON/OFF", you never know, but these are the type of commands tailored specifically for your physical LATCHING toggle switches of ON-OFF type, or 3-way latching switches of type ON-OFF-ON. All latching toogle switches on TM Warthog Throttle are of this type (either 2-way or 3-way). These "else" commands work like this: "As long as button X is held, the control in the cockpit is ON, otherwise it goes OFF". Mind you, they're NOT to be used with latching toggle switches of ON-ON (2-way) type or ON-ON-ON (3-way) type - these in turn need "stateful" commands, commands for separate positions, for example "Master Arm ON" and "Master Arm OFF". Such ON-ON switches can be found, for example, on Honeycomb Bravo Throttle Quadrant - those seven black rocker switches above the annunciator panel.

Why "_OFF" bindings are better? They work all the time, unlike "else" commands!
I don't know how to describe it well, but LeCuvier came up with the notion of "waking up the switches" - "else" commands sometimes make your latching toggle switches "go to sleep" and require you to then "wake them up". One scenario when this happens - at least on my PC - is this:

1. Let's say there's an "else" command for "Master arm ON else OFF". Bind it to a latching toggle switch, for example "EAC ARM/OFF" on your TM Warthog Throttle base. Now flick the switch up/forward into "ON" ("ARM") position. The toggle switch is now reported to Windows as in "ON" state. If you check the Windows Joystick window, the one with axes current positions and those round "red lamps" indicating button on/off states, with button numbers on them - your button must be now "illuminated" (red lamp must be on).
2. Jump out of the cockpit with F2.
3. Jump back in with F1.
4. Now flick the toggle switch down/aft into "OFF". The toggle switch must be reported to Windows in the OFF state ("red lamp" off).

Congratulations - your Master Arm in the cockpit didn't flick! The switch "went to sleep" or in other words, DCS didn't report state change from "ON" to "OFF". Sometimes it just doesn't do it (it may be due to some design decision which I don't understand, but it may be some kind of a bug). What you have to do in order to "wake the switch up" is to flick it up again into the "ON" position (even though it's not what you want), DCS always reports the state change from "OFF" to "ON" properly, and now flick the switch back down into "OFF".
Not very nice, especially when you have 10 or 20 such latching toggle switches in your hardware and all of them tend to "go to sleep" together.

Unfortunately I've noticed that on my PC my switches sometimes go to sleep also when I'm in the cockpit, without jumping out of it, I don't know exactly when and why it happens.
For this reason I was a bit grumpy about those "else" commands. Nothing wrong with them per se, but "going to sleep" is not something you may ever learn to like.

With "_OFF" bindings, your toggle switches NEVER go to sleep!
 

No more "asleep" controls!
Thanks, ED!
To the best of my (limited) knowledge, there wasn't even an anouncement in the DCS changelog about it and it's such an awesome feature! I'm in the middle of the process of removing my own "else" commands, I've had a zillion of them thrown in controls Lua files for so many modules.

 

This is what makes DCS great is that it is flexible in control setup compared to other sims

[Dragon1-1]

It's important to note that ELSE commands still have a place, despite this feature existing. BUTTON_OFF trips when the switch is toggled from "ON" to "OFF". ELSE triggers anytime the switch isn't in "ON". The difference is, the ELSE action will always synchronize the cockpit switch with the physical one. The ELSE bindings are still important for this reason.

[lesthegrngo]

I posted a link to this on the home cockpit forum, they would appreciate it

 

Cheers 

Les

[scoobie]

20 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's important to note that ELSE commands still have a place, despite this feature existing. BUTTON_OFF trips when the switch is toggled from "ON" to "OFF". ELSE triggers anytime the switch isn't in "ON". The difference is, the ELSE action will always synchronize the cockpit switch with the physical one. The ELSE bindings are still important for this reason.

Good point! However, I think what you're talking about may be the option called "Synchronize controls at mission start" or something like this, it sits in one of those Option Menus.
It is worth noting, though, that apart from this option, controls in DCS seem to work twofold, as described below.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still learning DCS and I find it important to understand how things work.

1. If in a Lua file you've got "pressed" and "value_pressed" entries in a specific control binding definition, then as long as you keep your button/key depressed, it is "sent" to your module constantly. EDIT: Hm... or maybe there's one trigger/event on button press and then another "automatic" trigger on button release? I don't really know, but I don't care too much as "pressed" commands seem to work all the time, I've never had problems with them.

2. Contrary to that, "else" commands commands use "up", "down", "value_up" and "value_down", and they seem to react only to a CHANGE of state (e.g. "the user has just flicked the switch up" or down) - a "single event", if you like. Then nothing happens, so in this sense "else" commands apparently don't trigger continuously. I may be wrong, of course, but I think that's how it works and actually even axes seem to work like this in DCS - the module gets the value (position) of your axis only when it has changed from the last time it was read by DCS. I think so because - for example - I have a common RPM axis for both engines in the Mosquito and I have two buttons (coolie hat left/right) to fine tune RPM in... I think it's the left engine (I wrote "decrease/increase slow" commands for this). So first I set RPM with the axis (the grey lever/wheel on the TM Warthog throttle base) and then, if I get that loud beat sound because the props aren't turning at exactly the same RPM, I may try to fight it with throttles or if I fail, I can tap "increase/decrease RPM slow" buttons to adjust left engine RPM so it matches the right one the best I can make it. Now, if the axis was "triggered" continuously, these button commands wouldn't really work as each time the position of the axis was read and "spat" into the module (continuously, at short time intervals), it would immediately overwrite/override the changes to RPM I introduced with the buttons. And the buttons DO work, hence my conclusion (perhaps an erroneous one, IDK).
Of course such "axis + buttons" dirty tricks only work if your axis is rock solid, isn't "trembling" or "crackling".

So... I'm not sure, but I believe DCS doesn't trigger control "events" continuously, maybe except for the scenario in the point 1 above. It only triggers when there's a change to your controls state. And if this is actually true, it might have been devised by ED long time ago (original Su-27 sim, or Flanker 2.0, maybe?) to decrease the processor load from user inputs - if you don't touch anything, nothing is sent to the module for "processing" and thus your CPU can do more interesting things.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by scoobie

[eatthis]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:19 AM, scoobie said:

Now, open the drop down list which now reads "JOY_BTN10" (or whatever button you have bound, maybe it's "JOY_BTN1") and look carefully at the list of available buttons - for each button on the list you now get two entries:
JOY_BTN10 (this one's obvious, nothing new here)
JOY_BTN10_OFF (new feature!)

what drop down list? 

[Minhal]

Just dropping an image, since it says more than a wall of text.

[_IvyMike_]

Hey guys, I thought I could use this to bind the slider button on my X56 throttle (not actually a slider just an on/off) for the speed brake in the F-18 but can’t get it to work. 
I set “Speed brake extend” to btn33_off and retract to btn33. The speed brake extends as intended but it doesn’t retract. 
I know there’s a mod for this but I thought it would be nice to set it up without that. 

[MAXsenna]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:16 PM, _IvyMike_ said:

Hey guys, I thought I could use this to bind the slider button on my X56 throttle (not actually a slider just an on/off) for the speed brake in the F-18 but can’t get it to work. 
I set “Speed brake extend” to btn33_off and retract to btn33. The speed brake extends as intended but it doesn’t retract. 
I know there’s a mod for this but I thought it would be nice to set it up without that. 

That should work. Double check?  

[LeCuvier]

@_IvyMike_I tried your solution with JOY_BTN20 on my TM WH throttle (APU START), and I saw the same behaviour as you describe. Note: this switch is a maintained ON/OFF switch.
But when I invert the bindings (JOY_BTN20 --> Extend and JOY_BTN20_OFF --> Retract) it works just fine. I cannot explain this, but maybe you can use this logic with your throttle.

[_IvyMike_]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:33 PM, LeCuvier said:

@_IvyMike_I tried your solution with JOY_BTN20 on my TM WH throttle (APU START), and I saw the same behaviour as you describe. Note: this switch is a maintained ON/OFF switch.
But when I invert the bindings (JOY_BTN20 --> Extend and JOY_BTN20_OFF --> Retract) it works just fine. I cannot explain this, but maybe you can use this logic with your throttle.

 

On 8/14/2023 at 3:26 PM, MAXsenna said:

That should work. Double check?  

I tried the exact same binding in the F-15E and it works perfectly..

[lesthegrngo]

Hi all, looking for some guidance here to set this up. 

On my A10C armament panel there are a number of two and three position switches. I have managed to make all the three position switches work fine, other than start synchronisation - more later. For the three position toggle switches the switch logic I am using is as follows as an example

GUN/PAC Arm JOY_BYN20 (so button 20 energised)

GUN/PAC Train JOY_BTN_20_OFF JOY_BTN_22_OFF (no button energised)

GUN/PAC Gunpac Arm JOY_BTN_22 (button 22 energised)

Works fine, except if the switch is in the incorrect position at startup I have to move the switch to get it to register and synch

However when it comes to the two position switches, I can get them to work like this

JSTRS On/Off JOY_BTN_34 JOY_BTN_34_OFF. 

That works great, as long as the toggle switch is in the correct position when you start the game. Despite only one position being energised, if the game starts with the toggle switch in the wrong position, the switch logic becomes reversed. Now, I can make it all work by presetting the switches in the correct positions before start, but that seems to defeat the object.

If I just use either JOY_BTN_34 or JOY_BTH_34_OFF, in game each time you throw the switch it will only move the switch once every two throws, ie either when the switch is energised, or when de-energised.

So am I using it correctly? The object is to only have to use one button for a two position switch, which in Racing sim games for H pattern gears and things is acheived by checking a ;hold button for gear' box, that means when no button is pressed it defaults to a 'neutral' or zero state

Cheers

Les 

[LeCuvier]

46 minutes ago, lesthegrngo said:

...However when it comes to the two position switches, I can get them to work like this

JSTRS On/Off JOY_BTN_34 JOY_BTN_34_OFF. 

That works great, as long as the toggle switch is in the correct position when you start the game. Despite only one position being energised, if the game starts with the toggle switch in the wrong position, the switch logic becomes reversed. Now, I can make it all work by presetting the switches in the correct positions before start, but that seems to defeat the o

I guess you are referring to the JTRS (not JSTRS) switch. That one is unfortunately programmed as a toggle for use with a pushbutton. The BUTTON_OFF feature is useless in this case.
This could probably remedied by adding a line to "default.lua". I could look into that later today, if you are interested.

[lesthegrngo]

Yes please, I was looking through the 'How to Edit Control Bindings Files' to see if I could do it, but am currently trying to work out where to find the 'cockpit_device_id' pertaining to the (as you correctly point out) the JTRS 

I would like to learn how to modify the files as well, because although I do heavily use DCS Bios, I also have a number of Bodnar boards as I think that they are better for switches

 

***EDIT***

from the clickabledata.lua file I believe it to be 'device = devices.AHCP, action = {device_commands.Button_9,device_commands.Button_9}'

so I think would be written as 

{down = device_commands.Button_9, cockpit_device_id = devices.AHCP, value_down = 1.0, name = _('JTRS switch ON/OFF'), category = _('AHCP')}

Have I got that right?

 

Thanks for the help

Les 

Edited November 5, 2023 by lesthegrngo

[LeCuvier]

I will look at it now. You have defined the "down" action. For a 2-position switch you need to define an action for "up" as well.

[LeCuvier]

This works:

{down = 3009, up = 3009, cockpit_device_id = devices.AHCP , value_down = 1.0, value_up = 0.0, name = _('JTRS switch 2-Pos ON/OFF'), category = _('Armament HUD Control Panel')},

It works also if you use "...value_up = -1.0...".
Your tentative line uses the same name as ED's original command. That would never work. The names must be unique.

[lesthegrngo]

Got it, thanks - let me give it a go, the good thing was I that was able to at least grasp the concept

Cheers

 

Les

[lesthegrngo]

Yep, all good now. I used the line

{down = device_commands.Button_9, up = device_commands.Button_9,cockpit_device_id = devices.AHCP, value_down = 1.0, value_up = 0.0, name = _('JTRS switch Toggle'), category = _('Armament HUD Control Panel')}

and after I remembered to put a comma at the end it works perfectly

Now, one thing that I couldn't understand was that I deleted the original callout line for the JTRS, but it still displays in the controls option. I'm not worried as you simply ignore it, but why does it still show?

Cheers 

[LeCuvier]

2 hours ago, lesthegrngo said:

...Now, one thing that I couldn't understand was that I deleted the original callout line for the JTRS, but it still displays in the controls option. I'm not worried as you simply ignore it, but why does it still show?...

 

That's probably because this command is also defined in the file "Throttle - HOTAS Warthog.lua". If my guess is right you will not be able to bind this command on any device except the TM Warthog throttle. That file is structurally the same as "default.lua", but its bindings can only be bound to switches/axes on that device.

[lesthegrngo]

Right, that makes sense - I see the individual .lua files for the different input devices

Thanks again

Les

[lesthegrngo]

A knock on question,  as much for just knowing how to do it for future reference as for actually using it.

The Ejection Seat 'eject' function is currently tied to three presses of the character 'e' and also I believe can be bound to a bodnar board in the controls setup. However I want to be able to make it a parameter that can be exported to DCS Bios, and I believe for that it requires the hexadecimal address so that it can be 'seen' by DCS Bios. I've looked to see if there is a hex address and can't find it, so is it something that has to be created with a cross reference or is it called out somewhere?

Cheers 

Les

[LeCuvier]

1 hour ago, lesthegrngo said:

A knock on question,  as much for just knowing how to do it for future reference as for actually using it.

The Ejection Seat 'eject' function is currently tied to three presses of the character 'e' and also I believe can be bound to a bodnar board in the controls setup. However I want to be able to make it a parameter that can be exported to DCS Bios, and I believe for that it requires the hexadecimal address so that it can be 'seen' by DCS Bios. I've looked to see if there is a hex address and can't find it, so is it something that has to be created with a cross reference or is it called out somewhere?

Cheers 

Les

Even if you bind it to the Bodnar board or any other game controller, you still have to hit the button thrice. I have added the following line to the "default.lua" for ^"UiLayer" under Saved Games. So I only need to hit the button once, and the hack is available for all aircraft modules.

{down = iCommandPlaneEject,	pressed = iCommandPlaneEject, up = iCommandPlaneEject,	name = _('Eject (press once)'),	category = _('Systems')},

Regarding DCS-Bios, I hope someone else can help you. My knowledge is = 0.