[NO LONGER PASSES IC] Improved Contact Dot Spotting (Updated v1.1)

[Ghosty141]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb BIGNEWY:

the team will look into it and determine, thank you

 We do not agree it is broken, but like I have said I have raised it with the team. 

------------------------

I have hidden petty squabbling posts, please keep the discussion friendly and respect peoples opinions even if you do not agree with them. 

thanks 

 

 

Hi! I generally agree with the notion you've explained in many other threads that artifically increasing the planes "size" to make it easier to spot is a bad solution and other steps should be taken to fix this if poissible. What I want to know your opinion on is the fact that spotting IS different depending on the resolution, on 1440p it is noticeably harder than on 1080p. That's a part of the core issue many people have with the current system. It feels bad to trade in visual fidelity for competitive edge.

If needed I can try to get some examples on 1440p vs 1080p at various ranges although I'm don't have too much time at my computer right now so you might need to wait a few days for this.
 

[Why485]

6 minutes ago, Ghosty141 said:

If needed I can try to get some examples on 1440p vs 1080p at various ranges although I'm don't have too much time at my computer right now so you might need to wait a few days for this.

This is a very old image, but the dot system hasn't changed since I took this screenshot.

6 minutes ago, Ghosty141 said:

What I want to know your opinion on is the fact that spotting IS different depending on the resolution, on 1440p it is noticeably harder than on 1080p.

I think that's bad.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Why485

[303_Tees]

I will  put my 2 cents, around year ago i upgraded from 1080ti and 1080p display to 3080 and 3440x1440 also new CPU ect . Now i can play with almost everything maxed. But i cant see contact at mid ,high distance at all . And i know ppl who have 4080 but to get better spot they set everything to low shadows textures .So its not only issue with a dot spot but also in game quality settings. For modern jet not so big issue but for WWII its massive advantage which need to be addressed

[Tbreeze76]

Just want to throw out there my 2 cents. Using a Pimax 8kx (so 3840x2160 roughly per eye) I cannot spot anything until it is roughly 3 miles away on average. That is pretty much unusable. A friend of mine uses the Quest 2 and can always see me at 10+ miles. This makes even forming up a challenge for me and he has to talk me on. Going for the best picture possible should not result in something tantamount to punishment. (Edit: I know it isn't actually punishment and not meaning to be hateful in anyway. Just a very frustrating user experience)

EDIT 2: After playing with the mod for a few hours here are my thoughts,

Outside of 4~6 miles, there is little difference. Inside of that there is a huge difference, I am able to spot things off at the edges of my peripheral vision that I previously wouldn't have been able to see looking straight on. I will do more testing tonight and see if my opinions hold up.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Tbreeze76

[Hextopia]

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Mods will still work, but they should not be passing pure integrity check. 

I have mentioned spotting to the team already. 

thank you

I humbly ask that you really press this issue home with the team and make sure that they understand this is going to be another PR stick in the eye if you simply lock a change like this behind IC without doing something to address the underlying issue its trying to fix.

Taking some time to examine this mod in detail and potentially including it as a temporary improvement over the current single pixel system would go a long way towards making the community feel heard when they bring up issues that are low cost to fix and implement but they go unacknowledged by the team at ED.

[NineLine]

I'll check out the mod, we can put it forth to the team even as an option if everyone things it is worthwhile. 

Thanks!

PS I added a poll on here, if you have tried it, please vote. Thanks. 

[barronpixy]

It's a almost perfect mod that DCS players needed desparately at the moment. I am an not a fighter pilot but as an airline pilot, I can tell it's easier to spot an aircraft in reality than in my 2560x1440 screen. I do think the mod makes missiles too visible, the dot is almost as big as an aircraft when viewed form certain distance. Overall it's a good start to improve the DCS spotting if ED allows and include it in future update.

[Harlikwin]

neat. I'll have to try this. 

 

[Callsign JoNay]

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

 We do not agree it is broken,

I'm speechless.

 

[Sarowa]

Here's my experience with this mod in VR with a Valve Index at full resolution with no anti-aliasing.

Setup

I have a mission set up with co-alt F-5s at 0.25nm, 0.5nm, 1nm, 2nm, 4nm, 8nm, 16nm, 24nm, and 32nm. They're offset by a small angle at each distance to give visual separation. Please see the attached mission.

I start the mission and close the briefing by clicking the X at the top right, instead of clicking Fly, to keep the game paused while I look around.

Observations

Without the mod and without any zoom, the 0.25 and 0.5nm contacts are clearly visible models. The 1nm contact is a very flickery model/dot. Contacts at 2, 4, 8, and 16nm are faint dots. I cannot see the 24nm contact or any beyond it without zoom. With VR Zoom, the 1nm contact becomes a clearer model, and the 2nm contact becomes a flickery model/dot. The 24nm contact becomes a faint dot. With VR Spyglass Zoom, the 4nm contact becomes a flickery model/dot. The 32nm contact becomes a faint dot.

With the mod without any zoom, the first 0.25 and 0.5nm contacts are clearly visible models. The 1nm contact is a very flickery model/dot. So far no change from without the mod out to 1nm. Contacts at 2 and 4nm are clearly visible dots, more clearly than without the mod. The contact at 8nm is a fainter dot. With VR Zoom, the 1nm contact becomes a clearer model, and the 2nm contact becomes a flickery model/dot. With VR Spyglass Zoom, the 4nm contact becomes a flickery model/dot. The 8nm contact remains a faint-ish dot at all zoom levels.

Conclusion

Overall, I like the mod. However, I would much prefer dynamic scaling to smooth the transition between dot (or scaled-up model) and model. DCS's dot to model transition point makes spotting very challenging as the model blinks in and out of existence, and this mod does nothing to address this existing DCS behavior. That said, this mod is a step in the right direction.

spotting-test2.miz

[Parabe11um]

Interesting and well done proof of concept.

This mod shows that there is a lot that can be done to shift spotting in a more realistic direction, imo, and highlights what people have been saying about DCS spotting for years (regarding issues related to how dots are rendered and how it leads to unrealistic behavior).

Overall this reflects findings that lead to the use of smart scaling in other professional/military and consumer sims, so it shouldn't really be surprising.

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Parabe11um

[Why485]

1 hour ago, barronpixy said:

I do think the mod makes missiles too visible, the dot is almost as big as an aircraft when viewed form certain distance. Overall it's a good start to improve the DCS spotting if ED allows and include it in future update.

That's just what missiles look like at 1080p and lower.

Unfortunately there's nothing I can really do about that, since the dots are applied uniformly seemingly to any interactive object. To modify dots based on type such as missiles would require source code changes from ED to pass additional information to the shader.

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

I'll check out the mod, we can put it forth to the team even as an option if everyone things it is worthwhile. 

Thanks!

PS I added a poll on here, if you have tried it, please vote. Thanks. 

Thank you for this.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Why485

[ryu1940]

Outstanding work! Hopefully this becomes an option integrated into the base sim (or at least some iteration of it). Thanks Why485!

[nuNce]

People who have voted "Seems worse to me" probabily play at 480p.

[Harlikwin]

Honestly I tried this stock and with the mod using a Varjo Aero (so relatively high res) using Sarowa's test mission. IDK how scientific anyone else was in their analysis of this, but I highly recommend getting that mission and testing it that way. 

Basically all the mod seemed to do was remove the further contacts entirely. 

There is no improvement that I can see with the spotting, in fact I'd rate it worse for further targets as they are removed entirely (though that may be realistic)

No mod                                  

1x
plane 1 tail/wings                 
plane 2 T shape
plane 3 dot med
plane 4 dot sml
plane 5 pixel
plane 6 pixel
plane 7 pixel
plane 8 pixel

Vr zoom low
plane 1 tail/wings
plane 2 tail/wings smol
plane 3 t shape smol / med dot
plane 4 dot smol
plane 5 pixel
plane 6 pixel
plane 7 pixel
plane 8 pixel

Vr zoom high
plane 1 tail/wings
plane 2 tail/wings
plane 3 tail/wings smol
plane 4 dot med
plane 5 pixel
plane 6 cant see
plane 7 cant see
plane 8 cant see

with DOT mod.

1x
plane 1 tail/wings
plane 2 T shape
plane 3 dot sml
plane 4 pixel
plane 5 cant see
plane 6 cant see
plane 7 cant see
plane 8 cant see

Vr zoom low
plane 1 tail/wings
plane 2 tail/wings smol
plane 3 t shape smol / med dot
plane 4 dot smol
plane 5 pixel
plane 6 cant see
plane 7 cant see
plane 8 cant see

Vr zoom high.
plane 1 tail/wings
plane 2 tail/wings
plane 3 tail/wings smol
plane 4 dot med
plane 5 pixel
plane 6 cant see
plane 7 cant see
plane 8 cant see

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Harlikwin

[Sarowa]

20 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Honestly I tried this stock and with the mod using a Varjo Aero (so relatively high res) using Sarowa's test mission. IDK how scientific anyone else was in their analysis of this, but I highly recommend getting that mission and testing it that way. 

Basically all the mod seemed to do was remove the further contacts entirely. 

There is no improvement that I can see with the spotting, in fact I'd rate it worse for further targets as they are removed entirely (though that may be realistic)

 

 

Here are some screenshots of what I was talking about. You can clearly see the 2nm and 4nm contacts (4th and 5th from the right) are more visible in the second image where the mod is active.

EDIT: Please disregard. These images are with VR Spyglass Zoom, so the 2nm and 4nm contacts are models here. It's probably just chance that they appear clearer in the "with mod" image.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Sarowa

[Why485]

11 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Honestly I tried this stock and with the mod using a Varjo Aero (so relatively high res) using Sarowa's test mission.

Basically all the mod seemed to do was remove the further contacts entirely. 

There is no improvement that I can see with the spotting, in fact I'd rate it worse for further targets as they are removed entirely (though that may be realistic)

Very interesting, thanks for testing this. Funny enough, I got to use a prototype Varjo headset a few years ago, and the resolution was so sharp I felt like I could see further in that headset than I can in real life!

The Varjo Aero is such an extreme edge case, especially considering it has that high resolution inset, that I'm honestly not sure what it would do or how it would interact. It's possible that since the resolution is so high, the models don't actually get small enough to become dots before they pass the "too far" threshold and the dot is already invisible.

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Why485

[Harlikwin]

30 minutes ago, nuNce said:

People who have voted "Seems worse to me" probabily play at 480p.

2880 x 2720 for the Aero. Mod should have probably made a huge difference for me, and all it seemed to do is delete far contacts. Mid range stuff was the same or worse.

8 minutes ago, Sarowa said:

Here are some screenshots of what I was talking about. You can clearly see the 2nm and 4nm contacts (4th and 5th from the right) are more visible in the second image where the mod is active.

 

 

First, thanks for making that miz. It enables a nice scientific comparison.

I gotta say I see 3 planes easily in both images. I do see the difference in your side by side when I zoom in. But I gotta say I don't see it in my Aero. 

I could see the planes as noted in my text in my test but really I didn't perceive them any better bigger with the mod on. Though it did delete further contacts. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Harlikwin

[AhSoul]

I've had to create my own labels file to overcome spotting in 4k (I wanted something less intrusive than the defaults but still help me). I'd love to stop using labels and use better dots....

[Funky]

Just wanted to repost this from a discussion about this in my squadron's discord. 

"I just checked the math. The angular resolution of the human eye is roughly 0.0003 radians. Using 17 metres for the wingspan of the mig 29 and the small angle approximation, we get a maximum distance to resolve the object of 56.67 km or 35.2 miles. Obviously atmospheric conditions will impact this ideal maximum.
That said, I've personally seen the planet Mercury with no magnification during a solar transit and that's only 0.00006 radians across, so the human eye can still see much smaller angular diameters, it just can't resolve them. For reference, that's the same angular diameter as a mig 29 at 283.3 km, or 176 miles."

[Harlikwin]

8 minutes ago, Why485 said:

Very interesting, thanks for testing this. Funny enough, I got to use a prototype Varjo headset a few years ago, and the resolution was so sharp I felt like I could see further in that headset than I can in real life!

The Varjo Aero is such an extreme edge case, especially considering it has that high resolution inset, that I'm honestly not sure what it would do or how it would interact. It's possible that since the resolution is so high, the models don't actually get small enough to become dots before they pass the "too far" threshold and the dot is already invisible.

 

 

I wonder if this might actually be the case.

 

5 minutes ago, AhSoul said:

I've had to create my own labels file to overcome spotting in 4k (I wanted something less intrusive than the defaults but still help me). I'd love to stop using labels and use better dots....

Yeah unfortunately I'd say the majority of PVP MP servers forbid labels. And IIRC there are problems with them showing thru the plane/clouds etc. 

[Goggz]

I use a 4k flat screen wiv Trk IR. I like the sharper realism of this resolution.

This spotting distance disparity for those of us who like to play at high resolution has been a bug bear for years. There is no doubt that lower than 1440 res players have an unfair advantage in air to air against us high res peeps.

While this mod should be applauded for trying to address the issue, it isn't mandatory to use it. Let's face it, why would lower res players give away a "legitimate" advantage?

I'd like to see the reverse of this mod being implemented as part of the game core, so it can't be avoided, i.e. make a 4k dot 4x the pixels, 2k dot 2x pixels, etc...

My question to ED is this - what are you going to do to address the advantage disparity in a way that is fair to all?

[H7142]

@Why485 Thanks for doing this I can't thank you enough.  I'd wanted to do this for a long time but i'm just so catastrophically busy irl I never got the time.  I've been talking about spotting issues on other forums and this one for years.  Including issues with the dot system that was added.

Edited April 17, 2023 by H7142

[Sarowa]

16 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

First, thanks for making that miz. It enables a nice scientific comparison.

I gotta say I see 3 planes easily in both images. I do see the difference in your side by side when I zoom in. But I gotta say I don't see it in my Aero. 

I could see the planes as noted in my text in my test but really I didn't perceive them any better bigger with the mod on. Though it did delete further contacts. 

 

My mistake, I was looking through screenshots I took and those screenshots appeared to make my point, but the 2 and 4nm contacts should be models in both, not dots, due to VR Spyglass Zoom. It seems to be pure chance that they appear clearer in the "with mod" screenshot.

I looked through some other screenshots and it's difficult to tell the difference due to JPG compression, but the difference was very clear to me with my headset on. Without zoom in my Index, the 2nm and 4nm contacts are much clearer for me with the mod than without.

And yes, in your case, I also suspect the high resolution of your HMD is skewing your results. This is another point in favor of dynamic scaling, instead of messing around with dots and transitioning between dots and models.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Sarowa

[Why485]

I've updated the OP with this FAQ entry, since I've been getting questions about this.

Do I need to turn on labels to use this?
No, the dot system in DCS is completely independent of labels. There is some confusion around the label system having a couple "dot" settings, but what those do is draw a label with a little . over the target. Labels are (at present) not obscured by clouds or the cockpit frame.

The dots in DCS meanwhile are a completely separate function and do not interact with the label system at all. They are always on, cannot be turned off, and cannot be modified by players without messing with the shader itself as this mod does.