reported Gunner Issues - Accuracy and engagement problems

[RafaPolit]

Good afternoon friends.

I'm trying to figure if this is a bug or a problem with my mission.  I'm trying to configure a group of A-20G bombers.  They move onto target and drop the weapons perfectly.  The ROE and Reaction to threat, on the other hand, has no change whatsoever.   No matter what I set them to, they won't attack the enemy fighters intercepting them.  And no matter what I set them to, they don't react to me shooting them, they keep on going straight into their target.

I have set the role as "Ground attack" and I am changing / setting the ROE and Reaction to threat on the WP0 configuration.

Thanks for any insight.

Rafa.

[Seaside]

I think there might be a bug with all bombers.

I had a similar thing with B-17's and A-20's

Someone posted a video where they flew right into a packed enemy bomber stream and flew right into formation and AI did not respond.

Hope they put this on priority

 

[Seaside]

Actually I just tried a mission. The after action said the bombers were firing. I wonder if it's just the tracer fire not showing ?

I took a B-17 in external mode and it was attacked briefly. I did not see it return fire.

 

 

[RafaPolit]

I flew in formation with three A-20s for minutes and didn’t get shot once.  If tracers are not showing, they have poorer aim than I do.

[J13 Serenity]

Hi
I have exactly the same problem
Me and my friends were trying to make a "Battle of Britain" Campaign PvE
We had 12+ Spitfires attacking 30+Ju88
Barely any of the bombers ever fired back
You can just sit on their tails and kill them one by one, no resistance
I tried making some testing with all kinds of ROE, reaction to threat, Even missile launch ranges, ECM etc...
I even gave them an EWR radar with the same frequency...
I tried all kinds of AI skill level
No effect
I can literally just sit on their tail and they almost never fire

Another notice:
The MG's actually move and track me, but almost never fire
On Ju88, top gunners fire much more rarely than the bottom ones.
In my tests the front MG never fired at all  
If I set a formation with 4 Ju88, usually no more than two open fire at any given moment

Its huge bummer for us, because German Ai bombers pretty much offer no resistance
Would be nice, if there would be an option to make them do some kind of "Suppressive fire"
Like BTR, BMP, and AAA do when anything gets within range...

If I am not mistaken, years ago, B17 bombers were pretty effective
Bot after one of the patches, they barely shoot back....

If anyone finds a solution, please, let us know in this thread

Thank you!

Here is a track from one of our training missions
On our second and third sorties, Spitfires and Bf109 where able to tear down through A-20 and Ju88 formations and never noticed any Gunners fire...

Mission_17_PvP Test Track.part3.rar

Mission_17_PvP Test Track.part2.rar

Mission_17_PvP Test Track.part3.rar

[J13 Serenity]

Also, I will add a tacview track I had from one of our missions containing some Ju88
At some point, a decent formation of Ju 88, with Anti-ship settings and bombs, attack unit orders, all veteran with AWACS on their frequency, and no other modifiers, were attacked by many human controlled Spitfires, but barely fired back...

Tacview-20230416-121519-DCS-Mission_14.zip.acmi

I would also add, that Ju88 seems to be very fragile, pretty much any 20mm hispano hit makes them burn and bail out
I tried reducing fuel to as low as 20%, but did not notice any major change in their resilience...
A 20 seems to be the most sturdy, while B17 is rather fragile as well, for some reason...

Edited May 1, 2023 by J13 Serenity

[Skewgear]

Nicely done with the tracks. This is a persistent problem we have with the Project Overlord bomber raids.

[J13 Serenity]

One more Notice:
When I tested the Ju88 gunners, sometimes they would open fire, and shoot a very long burst (up to 20-30 seconds long), the tracers just fly in one straight line, not following any targets. 
Once, all Ju88, fired those super long bursts, one by one.
But, after that, bomber never fired again...
 

Edited May 2, 2023 by J13 Serenity

[Komet_82]

I made this post some time ago:

Ju 88 gunner accuracy

here it was the complete oposite, when I was approaching the two Ju 88 the always shot at least one of my mossie engine dead from a very unrealistic distance with amazing accuary....

It would be great if this could be adjusted somewhere no?

[RafaPolit]

3 hours ago, Komet_82 said:

I made this post some time ago:

Ju 88 gunner accuracy

here it was the complete oposite, when I was approaching the two Ju 88 the always shot at least one of my mossie engine dead from a very unrealistic distance with amazing accuary....

It would be great if this could be adjusted somewhere no?

In theory that is what the level of expertise is there for, right? A "newbie" or "trained" pilot should hit some and miss some, and an "ace" or "veteran" should be able to have a higher success rate a longer distances.   The fact that this amounts not nothing is also a concern, but the mechanics are there for that.

 

In this case, they are not engaging AT ALL!

 

[J13 Serenity]

server-20230504-131039.trkHello again
We flew a mission with a lot of Ju 88 bombers bombing Paris (Server crashed)
I've instructed my friends to get on bombers tails and see if the gunners fire
There are some interesting things to note:
If you watch the track and follow a player with a name "Yura", you might see, that he flew right inside the bomber formation, but not a single Ju88 gunner opened fire...
At the same time, another player, with the name "Gena" did the same, and got heavily damaged by the Ju 88 gunners
Only 1 out of about 18 Ju 88 in the formation fired at him at any given point in time.
Gunners (Veterans) only fired a very short bursts
Also, that "Gena" did not crash into the bomber, but glided back to the airport...

Ju 88 settings in the editor were as follows:
1. Big formation, combat box
2. role - ground attack
3. Mission - carpet bombing (SC50) (in this particular mission no carpet bombing, just flight along the waypoints)
4. ROE - Designated target only (If set to Engage ALL - at the moment the first flak opens fire, Ju 88 break formation, crash into each other, dive etc...)
5. Skill level - veteran
6. Reaction to threat - passive defence
 

[Skewgear]

@NineLine bug report with multiple tracks, bomber gunners not firing at bandits.

[J13 Serenity]

One more track
Same exact Ju88 formations from the previous track, but this time at night (Midnight)
Surprisingly, The AI gunners are WAY more aggressive!!!
Multiple bombers would fire simultaneously, with a frequent bursts, making an attack from behind almost suicidal for a Spitfire
Why don't they fire like that during the day?Mission_19_day-20230507-121024.part1.rar

 

Mission_19-20230507-121024.part1.rar

Mission_19-20230507-121024.part2.rar

Edited May 21, 2023 by J13 Serenity

[J13 Serenity]

Well, I am unable to upload the third part of the track, because this website tells me that the file must not be more than 4.18 MB...
If you don't want my track...

It might be just a coincidence, but when I put 1980, gunners seem to shoot much more eagerly than 1940!? Even during the day...

Edited May 7, 2023 by J13 Serenity

[Komet_82]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb J13 Serenity:

One more track
Same exact Ju88 formations from the previous track, but this time at night (Midnight)
Surprisingly, The AI gunners are WAY more aggressive!!!
Multiple bombers would fire simultaneously, with a frequent bursts, making a attack from behind almost suicidal for a Spitfire
Why don't they fire like that during the day?Mission_19_day-20230507-121024.part1.rar

 

Mission_19-20230507-121024.part1.rar 35 MB · 1 Download

Mission_19-20230507-121024.part2.rar 35 MB · 0 Downloads

 

This was exactly what happend to me. There was no chance to attack them even a single Ju, they immediately destroy my plane.

Help on this would be highly apprechiated. Thanks

[Rex]

Been trying but I cannot get the Third Reich AI can't pull off a 4-man infantry group embark in Normandy 2.  I can do it on other maps / times, so I'm familiar with the process.

I'm trying to get 4 infantry from Colleville to Omaha in a Halftrack, but it always fails, and does so differently each time.  Sometime the soldiers won't get in.  Sometimes they will get in and the Halftrack won't move.  Sometimes they'll stand there and do nothing at all.

Is there a trick to it, or does it just not work?

The log is showing some stuff about corrupt damage models and _flir textures for planes , but I'm not sure if it's related.

 

2023-06-12 03:22:17.508 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnCoalition blue
2023-06-12 03:22:17.508 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnPlanes 2
2023-06-12 03:22:17.794 ERROR   APP (Main): Error: Unit [TF-51D]: Corrupt damage model.
2023-06-12 03:22:18.595 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnVehicles 2
2023-06-12 03:22:18.732 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnPlanes 80
2023-06-12 03:22:18.733 ERROR   APP (Main): Error: Unit [I-16]: Corrupt damage model.
2023-06-12 03:22:18.848 WARNING LOG (3880): 7 duplicate message(s) skipped.
2023-06-12 03:22:18.848 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnPlanes 4
2023-06-12 03:22:17.508 WARNING LOG (3880): 2 duplicate message(s) skipped.
2023-06-12 03:22:17.508 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnCoalition blue
2023-06-12 03:22:17.508 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnPlanes 2
2023-06-12 03:22:17.794 ERROR   APP (Main): Error: Unit [TF-51D]: Corrupt damage model.
2023-06-12 03:22:18.595 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnVehicles 2
2023-06-12 03:22:18.732 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnPlanes 80
2023-06-12 03:22:18.733 ERROR   APP (Main): Error: Unit [I-16]: Corrupt damage model.
2023-06-12 03:22:18.848 WARNING LOG (3880): 7 duplicate message(s) skipped.
2023-06-12 03:22:18.848 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnPlanes 4
2023-06-12 03:22:19.832 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (20484): texture 'Bf-109K-4_DIF_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.836 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (18320): texture 'FW-190_02_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.843 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (18320): texture 'Fw190_Fuselage_D_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.855 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (20484): texture 'Junkers_88_Vint_D_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.861 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (18320): texture 'B_17G_ROTOR_D_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.874 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (20484): texture 'A-20G_Dif_Wings' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.874 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (20484): texture 'A-20G_Dif_Wings_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.880 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (20012): texture 'C-47_Vint_D_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.893 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (18320): texture 'p51D_DIF_Fuz_Front_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.919 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (14332): texture 'P47D_Fuz_Front_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.934 INFO    EDTERRAINGRAPHICS41 (17672):     surface5 gc() LOD 0 4 squares
2023-06-12 03:22:19.934 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (14932): texture 'map_2_i16_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:19.934 INFO    EDTERRAINGRAPHICS41 (17672):     surface5 gc() LOD 1 4 squares
2023-06-12 03:22:19.935 INFO    EDTERRAINGRAPHICS41 (17672):     surface5 gc() LOD 2 38 squares
2023-06-12 03:22:19.936 INFO    EDTERRAINGRAPHICS41 (17672):     surface5 gc() LOD 3 78 squares
2023-06-12 03:22:19.936 INFO    EDTERRAINGRAPHICS41 (17672): surface5 gc() 2.369100 ms
2023-06-12 03:22:19.945 INFO    TACVIEW.EXPORT.LUA (Main): Loading C++ flight data recorder from [C:\Users\Rex\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Mods\tech\Tacview\bin\]
2023-06-12 03:22:19.945 INFO    TACVIEW.EXPORT.LUA (Main): Tacview 1.9.0.102 C++ flight data recorder successfully loaded.
2023-06-12 03:22:19.956 WARNING FLIGHT (Main): NO ATC COMM Saint Pierre du Mont:4050000:39050000:118600000:250600000
2023-06-12 03:22:19.990 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (20012): texture 'Mosquito_blade_D_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:20.026 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (20012): texture 'SpitfireIX_DIF_flir' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:20.124 INFO    VISUALIZER (Main): Preload() radius: 150000.000000
2023-06-12 03:22:20.124 INFO    EDTERRAINGRAPHICS41 (Main): ITerrainGraphicsImpl4::forceLoading(): pos=(-109687, 144.415, 49103.1), radius=150000
2023-06-12 03:22:20.301 INFO    EDTERRAINGRAPHICS41 (17672): surface5 clean up LOD 0: left 0  released 26
2023-06-12 03:22:20.303 INFO    EDTERRAINGRAPHICS41 (17672): surface5 clean up LOD 1: left 0  released 80
2023-06-12 03:22:20.303 INFO    EDTERRAINGRAPHICS41 (17672): surface5 clean up 3.209500 ms
2023-06-12 03:22:21.211 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (20012): texture 'lights_bano' not found. Asked from ''
2023-06-12 03:22:26.319 INFO    VISUALIZER (Main): Preload() finished
2023-06-12 03:22:26.329 INFO    TACVIEW.DLL (Main): Tacview Flight Data Recorder 1.9.0.102 Loaded.
2023-06-12 03:22:26.329 INFO    TACVIEW.DLL (Main): Config={tacviewModuleEnabled=1, tacviewFlightDataRecordingEnabled=1, tacviewSinglePlayerFlights=2, tacviewMultiplayerFlightsAsClient=2, tacviewMultiplayerFlightsAsHost=2, tacviewBookmarkShortcut=1, tacviewAutoDiscardFlights=60, tacviewDebugMode=0, tacviewTerrainExport=0, tacviewRealTimeTelemetryEnabled=1, tacviewRealTimeTelemetryPort=42674, tacviewRealTimeTelemetryPassword="", tacviewRemoteControlEnabled=1, tacviewRemoteControlPort=42675, tacviewRemoteControlPassword="", tacviewExportPath=""}
2023-06-12 03:22:26.329 INFO    TACVIEW.DLL (Main): Running in single player mode.
2023-06-12 03:22:26.329 INFO    TACVIEW.DLL (Main): Tacview is set to [Record All Available Data]
2023-06-12 03:22:26.329 INFO    TACVIEW.DLL (Main): Export path: [C:\Users\Rex\Documents\Tacview\]
2023-06-12 03:22:26.436 INFO    Dispatcher (Main): precache units resources in slots
2023-06-12 03:22:26.438 INFO    LUA (Main): Lua CPU usage: metric: average mission loading: 2.3977 %
2023-06-12 03:22:26.438 INFO    EDCORE (Main): Create game pool.
2023-06-12 03:22:26.439 INFO    Dispatcher (Main): loadMission Done: Сontrol passed to the player
2023-06-12 03:22:31.089 INFO    LUA (Main): Lua CPU usage: metric: average mission execution: 0.0000 %
2023-06-12 03:22:33.197 INFO    APP (Main): MissionSpawn:spawnLocalPlayer instructor_red_1,instructor
2023-06-12 03:22:33.408 INFO    LUA (Main): Lua CPU usage: metric: average mission execution: 4.1934 %
2023-06-12 03:22:33.414 INFO    TACVIEW.DLL (Main): Recording flight data in [C:\Users\Rex\Documents\Tacview\Tacview-20230611-202233-DCS-Battle_of_Britain-SANDBOX.zip.acmi]
2023-06-12 03:22:34.855 INFO    TACVIEW.DLL (Main): Export rights granted by the host: PlayerPlane=[1] PlayerSensors=[1] OtherObjects=[1]
2023-06-12 03:22:34.860 WARNING WORLD (Main): ModelTimeQuantizer: ANTIFREEZE ENABLED
2023-06-12 03:22:34.863 WARNING WORLD (Main): ModelTimeQuantizer: SAME MODEL TIME

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Rex

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

I recently purchased the WWII asset pack and FW-190D and I was trying to set up a bomber intercept\escort mission but the results were very poor. It appeared the bombers were completely helpless and made little to no effort to defend themselves.

I ran some tests. I setup a lone bomber on a level course. Bluefor. I tried both Veteran and Ace but with similar results. Just run the mission and watch from external view. AI has control.

I positioned a Redfor 190 about 500ft off the bomber in a stable formation with the bomber. The fighter was set to not react to threat so he just maintained course.

I tried a couple of Tests:

1. Target at 6 o’clock level.

Result – Tail gunner was a little shy with the ammo but did fire and easily killed the target. Fine. (But it would be nice to be able to dial in some more aggressiveness for Veteran and Ace skill level.)

2. Target 12 o’clock level.

Result –Chin gunner was a little shy with the ammo but did fire and easily killed the target. Fine.

 

3. Target 9 o’clock level.

Result – Side gunner shot but only little squirts occasionally. He should not have even had to aim. Target was close enough to almost fill his view, yet some how he couldn’t hit. I watched for 15 minutes before he actually pinged it once. It made me sad to watch.

 

4. Target directly above 500 ft level.

Result – Top gunner never would fire. Perfect target. He should have shredded him. Never pulled the trigger. He didn't even swivel his turret to point at him.  It made me sad to watch.

 

6. Target directly below 500 ft level.

Result – Belly gunner never would fire. Perfect target. He should have shredded him. Never pulled the trigger. He did swivel the turret and point at him, but would not pull the trigger.  It made me sad to watch.

 

From what I see, my theory is the AI is refusing to shoot at targets with high angle of deflection. Even when the target is just sitting there. In terms of relative motion, it is motionless. A perfect target. Close enough to open the window and spit at.

In practical terms, it means the AI bombers will virtually ignore targets unless they are crawling directly up their 6 or coming directly head-on.  In virtually any other approach, they mostly refuse to shoot.

 

(See attached test missions.)

Thanks in advance.

 

TestBuffGunners_side.miz TestBuffGunners_tail.miz TestBuffGunners_chin.miz TestBuffGunners_top.miz TestBuffGunners_belly.miz

[Andy1966]

Hi, yes the B-17s area little easy as set by default. To adjust the skill level, in the mission editor click on the aircraft icon, and you will see the aircraft skill settings. set this to veteran or ace. then go to waypoint properties and go to ROE and set to weapons free.  this should help. Then adjust to your taste.

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

20 minutes ago, Andy1966 said:

Hi, yes the B-17s area little easy as set by default. To adjust the skill level, in the mission editor click on the aircraft icon, and you will see the aircraft skill settings. set this to veteran or ace. then go to waypoint properties and go to ROE and set to weapons free.  this should help. Then adjust to your taste.

 

As I stated in the second paragraph above, I tried both Veteran and Ace skill level.  I didn't mention it, but I had also tried different permutations of threat response and ROE including weapons free.  None of that had any apparent effect on the tests.

Could you download the TestBuffGunners_top.miz (linked above) and edit it and repost with any settings that would make the top gunner actually pull the trigger?  That would be educational for me.  I could not find any settings to make him shoot.  If you get it working you can attach it here for reference.

Thanks in advance.

(I never approach from 6 o'clock.  I almost never attack from head on.  90% of my attacks would be from above and slashing in from high dive across the 3-9 o'clock approach.  From this approach, the gunners, especially the top gunner, don't even attempt to defend.  Sorta kills any enjoyment.)

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[Andy1966]

I am at work now, when I get home, I will check your file and post back here. and I will give you a few of my missions to try.

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

2 minutes ago, Andy1966 said:

I am at work now, when I get home, I will check your file and post back here. and I will give you a few of my missions to try.

 

Cool, thanks.  

The advantage of these test missions was to isolate the behavior of each gun separately in each in their own test case in a controlled and repeatable manner. 

So if you can make those work reasonably, my real mission will work.  But I made these because I was essentially seeing the same behavior in a full mission.  These tests just remove any other complicating variables.

     

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

29 minutes ago, gortex said:

Every Il-2 pilot knows that the Germans are blue and the Allies are red. Pshaw!

 

Lol.  I never could get used to that in the times I've tried that game.  

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

Anyone find any better settings that will make the top and belly gunner shoot in these examples?  

Or get the waist gunner to hit the broad side of a barn?

If not, my view is that:

*  the Top gunner is 100% broken.  Won't point.  Won't shoot.

* the Belly gunner is 95% broken.  Sorta points.  Won't shoot.

* Waist gunner is 85% broken.  Will point and shoot.  Couldn't hit a fish in a barrel.  

* Tail and chin gunners are probably adequate but really need to be a bit more aggressive.

 

 

 

 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

I'll amend my complaint on the waist gunner.  (EDIT: NOPE see below.)

True he is missing a perfect shot there.  No human would miss that shot.  you just give it a 1 sec squirt and walk the tracers over.

The AI waist gunner is aiming off.  But it is exactly off and consistent.  I think the problem here is it is so close that there is no dispersion and so the mis-aim rounds miss every time.  At greater distance, there might be enough dispersion for the waist gunner to get an occasional hit even if the exact aim spot is off, which the up close scenario reveals.

For now I'd re-grade it adequate along with  tail and chin gunner.  I can live with those.

I think the main problem is the top and belly gunner.  

 

In my original full mission, I just wasn't seeing the defensive fire that I expected.  I originally thought only the tail gunners were shooting.  So I created these individual tests to isolate the guns and watch them in a controlled situation.  In my normal attack, I would start 1000yd above and offset and roll in a strafing run across the targets 3-9 line, then dive below the target and extend away at high speed to setup another pass.  

So usually my main fear is the top gunner on the diving ingress and the belly gunner on the egress.  I used to fly a sim with mostly human buff gunners and even that pass could very dangerous.  I guess if the top and belly gunners were not shooting then I would really notice that difference. The top and belly guns should be my main threat.  I just wasn't feeling it.

 

Is there any way to get those to shoot?

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

Update: I did run across this thread.  Sounds like many variations of the same issue?

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips