SU25T: Shkval contrast

[Pavlin_33]

Just in case it was missed, I am creating a bug report reference here:

 

[Pavlin_33]

Hi @Flappie,

is there any chance for someone to have a look at this?

The issue comes Sun reflecting of the CRT screen. It basically renders the Shkval useless under most situations.
In the screenshot you can see that the target is practically not visible form a distance of less than 2km.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Pavlin_33
Added screenshot.

[draconus]

Add at least a short track and dcs.log if you seek devs attention. Does ST version have the same issue?

Edited July 12, 2023 by draconus

[Pavlin_33]

30 minutes ago, draconus said:

Add at least a short track and dcs.log if you seek devs attention. Does ST version have the same issue?

 

I will definitely do this. Where can I find the `dcs.log` file?
My screenshots are all taken in MP in single-threaded DCS.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Pavlin_33

[draconus]

22 minutes ago, Pavlin_33 said:

Where can I find the `dcs.log` file?

In your \saved games\dcs world\logs\ folder.

Try setting up simple mission in ME to make short SP track.

[Pavlin_33]

Here's the track.
Basically the Shkval's protective glare shield offers no protection from sunlight.
It's as if the screen is just exposed directly to the sun. Also the glare seems to be static no mater the head position.

25t-glare.trk

[Ironhand]

Watched your TRK and didn't have a problem seeing things, though the contrast is admittedly low. Could it be a settings issue? Or, perhaps, your monitor settings?

 

Here are my settings, in case that's the issue:

[Pavlin_33]

6 hours ago, Ironhand said:

Watched your TRK and didn't have a problem seeing things, though the contrast is admittedly low. Could it be a settings issue? Or, perhaps, your monitor settings?

 

Here are my settings, in case that's the issue:

Thanks for sharing your settings. Even in your screenshot it's quite difficult to tell of there is a target there or not - I believe there should be one avanger.

What I did find out is that it depends on the position of the Sun. Unless the Sun is in your front hemisphere, the Shkval gets more or less washed out. Now I do realize that in some extreeme positions the Sun can cause issues, but in DCS it's a bit exagerated.

[Ironhand]

5 minutes ago, Pavlin_33 said:

…Even in your screenshot it's quite difficult to tell of there is a target there or not - I believe there should be one avanger…

Yes, though it was a bit more obvious on my monitor. But better contrast would be a major improvement.

[draconus]

I looked at the track too and it looks pretty ok. The shadows from the huge shades make it usable from most angles but when it's direct sun glare on the CRT - you're in trouble if you don't have shadows set, like in the OP. As for the low contrast and quality - idk much about the real system but the CRT and camera is from early 90s. Having sun behind us make it harder for seeing contrast on the ground, even with Mk. 1 eyeballs in DCS behind the cockpit.

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

I looked at the track too and it looks pretty ok. The shadows from the huge shades make it usable from most angles but when it's direct sun glare on the CRT - you're in trouble if you don't have shadows set, like in the OP. As for the low contrast and quality - idk much about the real system but the CRT and camera is from early 90s. Having sun behind us make it harder for seeing contrast on the ground, even with Mk. 1 eyeballs in DCS behind the cockpit.

Cool picture! Do we have that glare shield around it in the SIM?
Haven't been flying it for a while.

[okopanja]

6 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Cool picture! Do we have that glare shield around it in the SIM?
Haven't been flying it for a while.

Such sun shield was used on Fulcrums, Flankers as well ka-50 IRL.

In DCS flanker/fulcrum this shield does not seam to have any effect (perhaps I should check my settings move head up). The worst situation is with Su-33, where glare is absolutely not bearable.

In case of ka-50 there were cockpit variations with different display, some of which did not have the shield. In addition to this Ka-50 had green curtains on side and an extra curtain in upper window. None of this can be actually used.

Edited July 14, 2023 by okopanja

[draconus]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Cool picture! Do we have that glare shield around it in the SIM?
Haven't been flying it for a while.

[Ironhand]

Draconus beat me to it. But, since I made it, I’d might as well post it:

 

 

[Pavlin_33]

So could it be the fact that I don't have shadows turned on, is causing the Shkval to be unreadable? My track does not depict the issue 100%, but in the screenshots from MP you can see that it's useless from distance of 5km when the Sun is nowhere near shining directly. Also, the glare does not seem to move at all when you move your head around.

On 7/14/2023 at 6:11 PM, okopanja said:

In DCS flanker/fulcrum this shield does not seam to have any effect (perhaps I should check my settings move head up).

29's HDD is readable in direct sunlight IRL.

[okopanja]

4 minutes ago, Pavlin_33 said:

So could it be the fact that I don't have shadows turned on, is causing the Shkval to be unreadable? My track does not depict the issue 100%, but in the screenshots from MP you can see that it's useless from distance of 5km when the Sun is nowhere near shining directly. Also, the glare does not seem to move at all when you move your head around.

29's HDD is readable in direct sunlight IRL.

I guess you got link? From what I have seen the HDD has very very intensive output, much stronger than TV screen like SHKVAL. Monochrome monitors should actually have a great sharp contrast. The sharpness deteriorate with time, so after several years they may look just like SHKVAL. The beam width can get worse over time, and also tubes need more time to heat up and produce less bright image, resulting less contrast as well.

I remember my grandma having 2 B&W TVs and sharply remember when one replace the other (she did not want color screen!). At that time I carried my C-64 at holidays and was astonished to find out that our color TV was actually much worse option for displaying of text.

In case of shkval, I can not be sure, since there are multiple versions with different geometry of screens as well as used phosphorus. The one @MAXsennaposted looks newer than one of the DCS.

Also note that cockpit shadows ON actually degraded the contrast in BS2/BS3 due to that damn green filter they added. Somewhere in Sept/Oct of 2022 for BS2 if I remember. Back than I was told to turn off shadows.

[Pavlin_33]

I am no expert on black 'n' white CRT screens, but Shkval is there to help better see targets that are far away. Now I understnad that in certain conditions it might be unreadable, but at the moment it's useless most of the time. I use zoom to look out and find targets instead the screen that was designed to do just that. 

Again, I don't think there is any problem with the image contrast, but a weird sun glare that is being rendered in the middle of the screen.

[Ironhand]

7 hours ago, Pavlin_33 said:

So could it be the fact that I don't have shadows turned on

Just realized that, in viewing your TRK, there are cockpit shadows. The Shkval screen is in shadow but the contrast is less for some reason.

[Pavlin_33]

On 7/16/2023 at 6:09 PM, Ironhand said:

Just realized that, in viewing your TRK, there are cockpit shadows. The Shkval screen is in shadow but the contrast is less for some reason.

Well if that is the case, it's an obvious bug. I can't verify it my self at the moment, but I will once I get access to DCS.

[Skuva]

I'm editing the cockpit to remove mipmaps (they are useless on the su-25t and FC3 anyway, because dcs alocates the entire textures into vram regardless of settings, and just show you the respective mipmap), and to make the shkval less broken and a bit more realistic with a baked reflection even.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Skuva

[draconus]

28 minutes ago, Skuva said:

and a bit more realistic

I disagree.

[Skuva]

30 minutes ago, draconus said:

I disagree.

you disagree with the photo you posted yourself? Have you lived in the 90's? have you ever seen how a crt tv look with sun shining on it? it doesn't become a unseeable piece of white sand paper, you can still watch stuff on it, it is just a bit nuisance. Also, the current shkval is the way it is because ED added a lot of new shiny beautiful effects to the game while neglecting older assets, just compare the su-25t with the ka-50.

null

Edited October 26, 2023 by Skuva

[draconus]

4 minutes ago, Skuva said:

Also have you lived in the 90's? have you ever seen how a crt tv look with sun shiing on it? it doesn't become a unseeable piece of white sand paper

Yes, I lived through 80-90s with CRTs all over and it could look like that in direct sun light. I was replying to your "tweaked" picture mostly.

[Skuva]

34 minutes ago, draconus said:

Yes, I lived through 80-90s with CRTs all over and it could look like that in direct sun light. I was replying to your "tweaked" picture mostly.

The extreme washed out effect happens because the "whiteness" of the sun sums with the "whiteness" of the texture, the texture is old and didn't have a problem with the old DCS lighting system. Reducing the "whiteness" of the texture you get almost the same washed out effect of the ka-50

Look how the left AAV is almost invisible on the default su-25t, while the ka-50 has no problem seeing it.

 

Well, regardless of your beliefs, I'll be using my livery and will publish it for others when I finish, including for the FC3 aircrafft that suffers the same problem.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Skuva

[MAXsenna]

@Skuva Have you considered getting an extra screen, and export the display instead?

Cheers!