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OT - SU-30K vs Rafale in joint exercise


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Justo to inform....cant remember the site where i get the info ok

 

IAF to send Sukhois to France for Joint exercises:

 

[india News]: New Delhi, Feb 24 : For the first time, India would be sending its much acclaimed Russian SU-30K fighters for joint exercises with the French Air Force in France in june this year.

 

The Sukhoi 30's which had created ripples last year by getting the better of US Air Forces F-15e tomcats in joint manouvres over Gwalior, would this time cross swords with the French Frontline Rafale and upgraded Mirage 2000-5 in the exercises codenamed Garuda II.

 

"A team of Six Sukhoi fighters backed by two IL-78 mid air refuellers would take part in the joint Indo-French fighter exercises", Air Vice Marshal S C Mukul said here.

 

With the Indian Air Forces interaction with foreign air forces becoming almost a yearly ritual, the Force is now developing the Kalaikunda Air base in West Bengal as an arena for Joint training with Foreign air forces.

 

"We are developing international facilties at the base so that it can host such joint manovres" Mukul said addng the airfield would be ready for such events by the end of the year, when it would be the site of second Indo-US fightr exercises.

 

The Americans, who last year did not acede to the IA request for joint exercises involving its frontline F-16 Fighting falcons, has this time agreed to bring these fighters to the Indian soil. The US Air Force action could have been swayed by the fact that Lockheed Martin, the manufacturers of the higly rated fighters, are making a serious bid for the IAF's contract to induct 126 multi-role aircraft. PTI

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Re: OT - SU-30K vs Rafale in joint exercise

 

[quote

 

The Sukhoi 30's which had created ripples last year by getting the better of US Air Forces F-15e tomcats[/b]

 

F-15E Tomcats? no wonder they got the better of them... :P

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F-15E Tomcat this seems like a bold undertaking! Just like your font.

 

Now do you mean F-15E Strike Eagle ot F-14 Tomcat? :?:

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F-15E Tomcat this seems like a bold undertaking! Just like your font.

 

Now do you mean F-15E Strike Eagle ot F-14 Tomcat? :?:

 

Well, the aircraft taken last year were F15C's . . . . and anyone who says that the Indians beat them outright is unfamiliar with the full story.

 

The Americans didn't refuse to take the F16's last year, they refused to take the latest version of the Eagle with AESA radar - but the Indians refused to bring the Su30MKI, so all was square on that one.

 

 

Astonishingly, I think the article actually uses the correct term for the primary aircraft the Indians used last year - the Su30K. However, other aircraft were also used . . . . think the other main one was the MiG21+Bison upgrade.

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Well, the aircraft taken last year were F15C's . . . . and anyone who says that the Indians beat them outright is unfamiliar with the full story.

 

The Americans didn't refuse to take the F16's last year, they refused to take the latest version of the Eagle with AESA radar - but the Indians refused to bring the Su30MKI, so all was square on that one.

 

 

Astonishingly, I think the article actually uses the correct term for the primary aircraft the Indians used last year - the Su30K. However, other aircraft were also used . . . . think the other main one was the MiG21+Bison upgrade.

 

I read about this on CNN when it happened. An AirForce General gave a statement to the press, which stated that he felt the exercise showed that the US cannot afford to let up on pilot training programs and the exercise showed that much needs to be done to bring pilot training back to where it used to be.

 

From the article I recall that according to the General, the US fighters performance was much lower than expected against the Indian Air Forces.

 

Saying they won/lost is just semantics next to that statement.

 

Here is a post of text from the article from WPS:

The Pentagon announced results of the joint war games of the U.S. and Indian air force last Thursday. The outcome of the first dogfight shocked the USAF - Su fighters displayed their overwhelming superiority./

 

WPS Subject: SU-30MKI FIGHTERS RUSSIA HAS MANUFACTURED FOR INDIA HAVE DISPLAYED THEIR OVERWHELMING SUPERIORITY OVER F-15C EAGLE U.S. FIGHTERS IN A TRAINING FIGHT

 

The Pentagon announced results of the joint war games of the U.S. and Indian air force last Thursday. India's Su-30MKI fighters manufactured in Russia and Jaguar assault planes will fly to the Anchorage Point airbase in Alaska on June 4; in late 2004 F-16 fighters of the United States will pay a visit to the Gwalior base in the State of Madhya Pradesh, India. The joint war games, which were recently conducted in India, when the best Russian and U.S. fighters met in an air combat for the first time, encouraged the cooperation between the Indian and U.S. air forces. The outcome of the first dogfight shocked the Americans - Su fighters displayed their overwhelming superiority.

 

Four F-15C Eagle fighters of the 315th Air Division based in Eaglestone (Texas) represented the USA. It should be noted that pilots of this division have combat experience; large war games of the NATO air force entitled Gun Smoke are arranged at this airbase twice a year. Special Agressor squadrons, equipped with planes and helicopters imitating the aircraft of potential foes are involved in similar maneuvers. Similar exercises are imitating the tactical environment, maximally approximated to combat. (...)

 

The USA agreed to send its best fighters to India only after they had got guarantees that Su-30MKI, the most up-to-date fighters produced in Russia would take part in the war games. This was the first occasion when the combat properties of the best Western and the best Russian planes could be compared in a duel. Results of the war games stunned the U.S. Air Force command. It has been considered so far that the perfect performance characteristics typical of the Su family aircraft are made up for with the excellent airborne equipment the U.S. planes have. Radars installed at F-15C fighters hypothetically detect an enemy earlier than a U.S. plane is detected. This gives a significant advantage - it saves time, required for homing and launching a missile. However, the Indian pilots transformed U.S. ideas of the tactics in fighting aviation. Using the passive infrared scanners, which may detect a smoldering cigarette in a thick forest at the distance of 30 km, Su-30 fighters stealthily came up to the U.S. fighters to reach the distance of an aimed shot from an airborne cannon! A heavier and, therefore, less maneuverable Eagle fighter have few chances to survive in a close combat. As reported by the Indian command, the Americans were dropped at least 20 times.

 

Besides, it turned out that the Russian airborne radars are better than the vaunted U.S.-made radars. The former enabled to detect F-15 planes at the distance of up 60 km even against the mountainous background. The enemy's radars were merely "blind" under similar circumstances, not seeing a target against the backdrop of multiple radio beam reflections from the mountain ledges.

 

The tactics displayed by the Indian pilots became another surprise for the Americans. Air Marshal Michael Mcmahon, Vice Chief of India's Air Staff told us: "The Americans were expecting us to act applying the fighting aviation according to the Western doctrine. However, we chose the Soviet model and, as a result, gained the upper hand over our opponents." In the outcome, fighters manufactured by Sukhoi Design Bureau were in absolute advantage. They won two of each three duels they've been to.

 

The U.S. Air Force Command is seriously perplexed by results of the exercises. Besides, at the U.S. initiative the maneuvers scheduled for 2004 will be conducted according to the extended program. Thus, F-16 Fighting Falcon, the major tactical fighters in the West, will participate in the exercises to be held in India against MiG-29 fighters, their counterparts which are in service with the Indian Air Force. The Hindus are seriously interested in that, since falcon fighters make the basis of the Air Force of Pakistan, which is India's potential enemy. In addition, a couple of AWACS planes will be involved in the exercises as well. The Hindus want to test efficiency of this system before deciding to purchase A-50 planes of joint Russian-Israeli production. Il-78 aircraft, which recently were purchased from Russia, will participate in a nonstop flight to Alaska for the first time in history of the Indian Air Force.

 

It should be noted that the F15s did not have their usual AWACS support. Maybe this is a prerequisite to America winning any air war against a similar equipped opponent these days?

 

http://www.af.mil/stories/story.asp?storyID=123007057

 

While the superb performances of the Sukhoi-30's were somewhat anticipated, the performance of the MiG-21 Bisons came as a major “unpleasant surprise” to USAF officials. The Bison with new powerful R-25 engines, latest radar, missiles and EW (Electronic Warfare) were credited with “jackrabbit” acceleration and great dog-fighting ability. It also validated the claim of Russian officials that they are capable of successfully converting “second generation” late-model MiG-21 bis fighters into “fourth generation combat platforms”.

 

If you can find any quotes or press releases that do not say that the Americans were outflown and at least partially outmatched by the Russian technology I'd appreciate if these could be posted so I can see :)

 

I also heard that the exercises were a cover to garner support for continuing development of the F22 fighter, hence the reason the US forces lost.

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I also heard that the exercises were a cover to garner support for continuing development of the F22 fighter, hence the reason the US forces lost.

 

I think that spin on any exercise is more or less a given these days - the USAF has the opportunity to keep the Raptor, and it's a truly magnificent aircraft . . . . I'd be trying to do everything I could to get my hands on one :wink:

 

 

Anyway, bgp's quick summation of the the US/India exercises.

 

The Indians were better trained than the US expected.

The Indians were outnumbering the USAF something like 12 to 4 in a typical scenario.

 

The Americans weren't using AWACS.

Neither were they using AMRAAM - not much data to simulate them well, and they considered it "unfair" when setting up the scenarios. Oops.

Neither were they using their AESA radars (the ones they didn't take to India), for which their modern tactics are formulated.

 

 

Outflown, no. The level of pilot skill was beyond what they were expecting, and with a 12-4 ratio you can't keep up.

 

Outmatched by technology?

With neither of the latest versions of either side's aircraft being used in that exercise, and the absence of AESA radars, AWACS, AMRAAM, and real tactics, I think it's foolish to draw a conclusion. It's not a representative situation.

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I'll point out a few things for those exercises....

 

1. The F-15C is it's own bloody AWACS, and with one 15 hanging bakc, the rest could have fired their AMRAAMs without ever turning on their radars - the rear 15 could guide'em all using TWS thanks to a nice feature in the AMRAAM called wingman number (or whatever it is that they call it).

 

2. The AMRAAM was not simulated, the weapon simulated was a pseudo-AIM-7 with the range cut off at 20nm. That means no multiple target engagements ... and the F_15 with the AMRAAM is SUPPOSED to operate successfully in 4:1 environments (The F-22 in 12:1!!!) when equipping the AMRAAM in particular. But this 4:1 scenario is supposed to include strikers, not just fighters.

 

3. At least in SOME cases the 'win' was attributed to anyone who got a lock FIRST. Not much 'simualtion' happening there.

 

4. ECM and other advanced features on either side were NOT used.

 

5. F-22 purchases were reduced anyway... :P

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F-15e tomcats :D

 

the article was translated from portugues

 

F-15e tomcats should mean F-15 and tomcats

 

but i cant remenber if the f-14 take part in the exercise

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Guys just one more Note....i not post this artcle to bring back that OLD figth IAF is bether the USAf ...russian planes are bether etc etc etc.... :D

 

 

I put the article because very soon we finally can se how the SU will perform against the rafale (until now it dont participate of any exercise) with long range missiles simulated

 

cya

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No. Remember that 12:1 includes strikers. This probably means that the last 4-5 are going to go down with guns -or- alternatively you're looking at an externally-equipped F-22. Ie. extra AMRAAMs on outboard pylons ... it compromizes stealth a little, but it's probably not such a huge deal against fighter radar. That would give you around 16 missiles.

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I put the article because very soon we finally can se how the SU will perform against the rafale (until now it dont participate of any exercise) with long range missiles simulated

 

Yes they did :They were at the NATO TLP (Florennes/Belgium) last october/november

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=Dassault%20Rafale%20M&distinct_entry=true

 

BTW, french rafale train quite often with the Belgian F-16s mlu. And they don't simulate magic2/sidewinders only :wink:

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No. Remember that 12:1 includes strikers.
I disagree ... the 22 is designaed to penetrate hostile airspace and establish air dominance ... it isn't going to find 'strikers' ... its going to find a integrated air defence environment supporting local figthers ... and its designed to go it and kill anything it finds ... I'm sure its a great a/c ... but 12:1 lets be realistic!

 

And you start hanging external stores and you lose steath ... so I doubt it'll do much of that.

 

James

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You can disagree all you want, but that's the spec.

 

Also as I said ... the hit you take on stealth due to some pylons isn't half as significant as hiding the turbine blades ;)

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The F-22 in 12:1!!!)
How can it operate 12:1 ... it only carries 8 missiles! So assume 100% hit rate ... it is now 4:1 and you're going to do what? Run!!

 

James

 

The Pilot can carry some in their luggage.

 

Could remove the Pepsi machine and ice cream maker ... No, on second thoughts that would cause a mutiny, better leave them in :)

 

James

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The F-22 in 12:1!!!)
How can it operate 12:1 ... it only carries 8 missiles! So assume 100% hit rate ... it is now 4:1 and you're going to do what? Run!!

 

James

 

Why do you think that supercruise was a requirement for the thing?

 

When the going gets tough, the tough run like hell!!

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I put the article because very soon we finally can se how the SU will perform against the rafale (until now it dont participate of any exercise) with long range missiles simulated

 

Yes they did :They were at the NATO TLP (Florennes/Belgium) last october/november

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=Dassault%20Rafale%20M&distinct_entry=true

 

BTW, french rafale train quite often with the Belgian F-16s mlu. And they don't simulate magic2/sidewinders only :wink:

 

Have you any info about this exercises ?

 

i really apreciate if you can post here this kind of info

 

cya

Rodrigo Monteiro

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joint exercises are a bit like computer sims. You never know if the rules of the game really reflect reality. At least the pilots don't have to wonder if the fm is accurate afterwards though...

 

or maybe they do? possibly they are not allowed to exceed limits that they migth exceed if necessary in a real engagement?

 

there you go, we can't even be certain of that!

 

What I'm sure of, is that in any joint exercise neither side will be showing their full hand.

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