Laser bombing moving targets - how?

[dporter22]

41 minutes ago, IanC58 said:

Works perfectly for me

Please post a track. I posted a track of it not working, so if it's been fixed or if there's a procedure I'm missing that would be great.

[felixx75]

9 minutes ago, Poptart said:

You're welcome to post a track. That's not how it works in DCS. That's also not what it says in the docs.

AFAIK the docs only says, that CDES does not work, if you are slewing the pod. In the moment the slewing stops, the new position becomes the new designated target. The doc says nothing about an established point track in conjunction with CDES...

I will be back home tomorrow, then I will test it.

[AvroLanc]

33 minutes ago, Poptart said:

You're welcome to post a track. That's not how it works in DCS. That's also not what it says in the docs.

Yeah. I made it clear that it may be modelled wrong in DCS. It’s still WIP, and I’ve not done enough testing with CDES. 

My description was correct though. What doc are you referring to? I’m using RL SE workbooks. The game manual is still WIP too. 

[Poptart]

This is what you should see. 

The azimuth steering line and target diamond behind the TPOD location (from the perspective of the moving target). CDES boxed (irrelevant), laser on, point track established, weapon hot.  

[AvroLanc]

22 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

AFAIK the docs only says, that CDES does not work, if you are slewing the pod. In the moment the slewing stops, the new position becomes the new designated target. The doc says nothing about an established point track in conjunction with CDES...

I will be back home tomorrow, then I will test it.

There would be very little point in having CDES if it didn’t work with a track mode……

[dporter22]

4 minutes ago, Poptart said:

This is what you should see. 

The azimuth steering line and target diamond behind the TPOD location (from the perspective of the moving target). CDES boxed (irrelevant), laser on, point track established, weapon hot.  

Yes, that's what's wrong currently. The target diamond should be on the target (that's why it's called a "target diamond" and not a "somewhere in the vicinity of the target diamond"). The diamond and the ASL need to be on the target to provide guidance to the target and the correct weapon release location. 

See the track I posted of the F-18 for how it should work.

[bfr]

So is consensus that this is a bit broken at the moment? I only tried it for the first time yesterday but was a complete bust. I tried tracking a moving tank i'd set up on one of the target range 'lily pads' on the Nevada map and it was hard work just picking it out on the TPOD, never mind getting it to track. I got the highlighted MPD button text to suggest it was sort-of working but no matter what I did it wouldn't then track and follow the target.

Admittedly this was in daylight conditions so that might not help with contrast, so I might try again in twilight/night and see if that does any better.

[dporter22]

Yes, designation of a moving point track does not work. 

It's reported as a bug so hopefully they'll fix it soon.

Edited July 14, 2023 by dporter22

[CH4Pz]

I set up a practice mission, and ive been able to get the point tracks everytime, a few things i found helped were, you actually dont have to designate at all with TDC press, if your using CDES boxed, just box CDES, change to point track and press auto aq. press and it should latch on. It seems when it latches on, next to point track, it says OTRK (open track?) thats how you know its good. ive have way more luck changing to black hot (i think), the one where the vehicles go black, as the pod seems to grab the darker point better, honestly i dont think ive done one with white hot yet!! but this may be relative to the part of map i was on? and try give yourself 6-7 mile turn arounds at least so you get nice straight run in, as the laterin doesnt ground stab. very well and a little bump makes it unlatch, my 2c anyways, hopefully it helps someone

[dporter22]

Thanks, but the problem is not getting a point track, it's getting a designation to remain on the point track. You have to have a designation on the target in order to release the weapon accurately and currently the designation doesn't stay on a moving target.

[MadKreator]

See now I have to test these theories to put my mind at ease Using TDC depress in this case should really only be to tell the tgp that it is now the SPI ( in a-10 terms) that the jet will get target designations from. When bombing a static target, that point where it was pressed IS your target point. When using CDES, once the point track is established, the TGP will infinitely designate the target being tracked as long as there is no more input from the TDC. The initial pressing of the TDC should only be relevant to switch the TGP to SPI so the jet is getting its target designations from it, not NAV, HUD, RDR or other sensor(shown under osb 17). If your TGP is already set as “SPI” then there should be no need to press the TDC for concurrent attacks (on moving targets)  just attain a point track with CDES boxed and bomb away.  Maybe I’m totally wrong, Maybe it is bugged, but I haven’t had any issues using it on ships. Maybe I just got lucky I’ll report back as well if I come up with anything useful.

Edited July 18, 2023 by MadKreator

[dporter22]

Yes, that's the problem. The designation does not remain on the moving target with a point track (regardless of whether CDES is boxed or not).  

It works on very slow moving ships because the designation is still close enough to the target that the weapon can pick up the laser.

It's a significant bug so I'm sure they'll fix it soon.

[MadKreator]

Yes very inconvenient since there are no mavericks or anything else to use on moving targets. Aside from lobbing mk82’s and hoping your in-flight calculus is on point lol 

[KlarSnow]

So what may be causing this issue is that when you designate with the TDC the track is switching from point to area (incorrectly). Which may be interrupting the CDES process and causing it to stop updating. Either way its not really working correctly.

And as just a bit of SA for how to engage moving targets. CDES really isn't supposed to be a moving target engagement mode. It can be used as such, but its real purpose was for continually updating the target range and coordinates for stationary targets until the instant of release.

Prior to CDES being implemented creating a designation with the targeting pod and the laser firing could only ever make what is called a "one shot" designation, IE the coordinates and elevation are saved the moment you create the designation. The issue with that is that with a drifting INS and error in the system, any appreciable time frame (greater than a few seconds) after creating the designation results in the designation starting to drift away from the actual target location. The way aircrew would get around this was by constantly designating on final every few seconds to keep updating the relative position of the target.

This also was not ideal since the jet was not really meched to deal with the designation being constantly recreated over and over again in this manner, the release symbology could start jumping or not being able to handle the sudden jumps in input, so they implemented CDES where the jet just keeps smoothly updating the target relative location and elevation and can handle it in a good manner and aircrew don't have to create designations over and over again while on final.

So CDES isn't really a moving target mode, even though it can be used as such. There were a bunch of issues with it IRL that lead to it eventually getting removed in the very next suite of software for the F-15E, but a bunch of other tools were also added (actual moving target track modes and automatically calculating ballistic designation lead for a moving target in track for example).

If you want to engage moving targets with LGB's in this suite of strike eagle, what you really have to do (or at least what aircrew using this suite did) is pull lead manually with your targeting pod and make a designation out in front of the target based on its speed. Its not that hard, takes a bit of practice but can be quite effective.

Your other option "currently" would be to use a GBU-24 in a point and shoot mode. To do this, select DIRECT on the ARMT page, be below 15,000 feet MSL, have your targeting pod on the desired target, laser firing, dive steeper than 15 degrees to get the reticle in the HUD on the desired target, release the bomb and lase it in to impact. The GBU-24 will if released steeper than 15 degrees and below 15,000 feet MSL both pull pro-nav lead, and glide at the angle you released it at into the target, not taking a ballistic path (no need to pull ballistic lead).

In any case the current CDES behavior is somewhat broken and should get fixed, but please don't think that this system is really optimized for moving targets. The F-15E in this timeframe really did not have a lot of tools for hitting movers that became fairly standard a few years later.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Thanks for your insight, KlarSnow  

[Panny]

On a general gameplay note(this may not be applicable after the next updates), CDES itself makes handling the LANTIRN a lot harder, including the track wobbling when the aircraft banks.

Having selected PTRK, if I'm employing LGBs on a moving target I tend to designate at the rough location I anticipate the vehicle to be at impact, then command the point track on the vehicle. While in MLAS I add at least a shallow dive(to counter the current bug of AUTO throwing the bomb long and therefore out of the seeker's FOV), and manually fire the laser.

Though YMMV I've found this consistently repeatable, and have found CDES to be more of a pain due to its wobbly nature.

[Panny]

I should add, whether accurate or not, the laser follows the point track in game, not the designation that was initially made

[CH4Pz]

22 hours ago, dporter22 said:

Thanks, but the problem is not getting a point track, it's getting a designation to remain on the point track. You have to have a designation on the target in order to release the weapon accurately and currently the designation doesn't stay on a moving target.

Not sure if its meant to work like this, but in the current build, you dont have to designate anywhere if CDES is boxed, CDES is Constant designation, so it is always redesignating. In the practice mission i made, all 4 moving targets, i just box CDES, with PTRK, and tap auto aqq. press once, if it doesnt grab first try, dont press again (i think this is how it changes back to area track), just move near the target with tdc slew, and make sure your polaritys correct (obviously the bigger the contrast between target an background will hold better track).

 

EDIT, just made a new mission n track to show u what i mean

F15GBUPTRK.trk

[dporter22]

11 hours ago, CH4Pz said:

Not sure if its meant to work like this, but in the current build, you dont have to designate anywhere if CDES is boxed, CDES is Constant designation, so it is always redesignating. In the practice mission i made, all 4 moving targets, i just box CDES, with PTRK, and tap auto aqq. press once, if it doesnt grab first try, dont press again (i think this is how it changes back to area track), just move near the target with tdc slew, and make sure your polaritys correct (obviously the bigger the contrast between target an background will hold better track).

 

EDIT, just made a new mission n track to show u what i mean

F15GBUPTRK.trk 752.72 kB · 2 downloads

Could you please explain how you got a target diamond and ASL without designating the target? In my F-15E I have to designate a target in order to get the diamond/ASL to drop the weapon, and boxing CDES still requires a designation.

[dporter22]

21 hours ago, KlarSnow said:

If you want to engage moving targets with LGB's in this suite of strike eagle, what you really have to do (or at least what aircrew using this suite did) is pull lead manually with your targeting pod and make a designation out in front of the target based on its speed. Its not that hard, takes a bit of practice but can be quite effective.

 

I know it's an old suite, but it seems odd that it would not include the capability to target moving targets. I've never heard that the A-10 was unable to target moving targets using the same pod, was it?

[Rainmaker]

16 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

I know it's an old suite, but it seems odd that it would not include the capability to target moving targets. I've never heard that the A-10 was unable to target moving targets using the same pod, was it?

Nothing ‘odd’ about it. 
 

A-10s were not using lantirn, and didnt have LLG either. 

[KlarSnow]

In 2002/3 A-10s were still A-10A's.... They had no targeting pod. The A-10C that we know and love in DCS only came about a few years later, and they initially got LITENING pods, not LANTIRN.

 

So no contemporary A-10's did not have any better moving target capability to Suite 4+.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by KlarSnow

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

22 hours ago, KlarSnow said:

If you want to engage moving targets with LGB's in this suite of strike eagle, what you really have to do (or at least what aircrew using this suite did) is pull lead manually with your targeting pod and make a designation out in front of the target based on its speed. Its not that hard, takes a bit of practice but can be quite effective.

Is there anything coming later in this module that will 'remove' this limitation or is designating out in front here to stay? Thanks.

[KlarSnow]

52 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Is there anything coming later in this module that will 'remove' this limitation or is designating out in front here to stay? Thanks.

So right now CDES is somewhat broken/inconsistent, so that being fixed should allow the designation to move with the target, even though that isnt really the purpose of CDES, it would work as you seem to want. 

LITENING/SNIPER pods whenever they get implemented should have additional capability beyond what LANTIRN does, they don't have CDES for example and have specific Moving target track modes.

[CH4Pz]

7 hours ago, dporter22 said:

Could you please explain how you got a target diamond and ASL without designating the target? In my F-15E I have to designate a target in order to get the diamond/ASL to drop the weapon, and boxing CDES still requires a designation.

i think it just happens once im in A/G mastermode, weapon selected, master arm on and i slew the tpod (with tpod soi). will test again and see

EDIT: just redone that test, and as soon as i switch to A/G mode the fall line comes up. In the ME i did make WP1 a target by naming it "#t" although i dunno if that will change it? once it has this, the waypoint has a . after it, so 1. for eg instead of 1A

 

i just go AG & master arm on, ptrk, CDES, auto aq. ONCE (also it has to be close enough to target too, there is a set slant distance but i cant remember, maybe 8 miles, but just so target fills most of the centre of the crosshairs, EXP helps) an switch to black hot/white hot if still not catching. if you open that track i posted, and take control you should get it, u spawn right near target so great for retrys