Laser bombing moving targets - how?

[WizzRD]

32 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

Correct, the target designation and lasing are continually updated automatically, which the DCS F-15SE module cannot currently do.

I take it you mean some kind of "Auto-Tracking" as the other pods provide, not designating wich is really not needed for the F-15. You only really need to designate close to the target and still the bomb will hit wherever you slew the crosshair. 

I didn´t try to have the Pod autotracking (mainly because I like the challenge), but with little practice you can have them hit regardless.

[CH4Pz]

17 hours ago, dporter22 said:

As you can see in this entire thread, it wasn't working before and still isn't. Suite 4 either didn't have the capability, or the pod didn't, or they did but it didn't work in this module, but either way you can't track and designate a moving target.

So like I said, it would be nice if/when they update the module.

i just made a quick track, in 2.9, showing it tracks moving vehicles, so im not sure what your actually referring to? my earlier comments go over the step by step. As mentioned above, CDES seems broken atm, typically if the WP is set to a target wp (with a . ), you dont even have to designate, but as cdes isnt designating atm, just do it once half a screen away from target, get the lock (i think you have to be within 9 mile slant range for it to grab?!).

F15 trak.trk

[dporter22]

As explained many times, it cannot automatically maintain designation on the moving track as other aircraft can, which is why you have to lead and keep redesignating. 

[QuiGon]

On 10/24/2023 at 2:22 PM, dporter22 said:

As explained many times, it cannot automatically maintain designation on the moving track as other aircraft can, which is why you have to lead and keep redesignating. 

Which is how you should do it anyways (especially for fast moving targets), as automatic designation doesn't provide any lead at all, even if automatic designation works. I think you have a wrong impression of how this all works together.

Edited October 27, 2023 by QuiGon

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

My understanding is that with say the F-18's Litening pod, PTRK on a moving target constantly updates and moves the release point of the bomb fall line. And the bomb fall line is tied to the diamond which moves with the moving target. You can see the horizontal cue bar move upwards as the target moves further away from your aircraft during an active pause. In the F-15E Lantirn pod, this is not happening because the pod or whatever does not have this capability. It's a 'static' bomb fall line post designate in the sense that the bomb fall line and release point are tied to the last static or fixed position of the designate diamond on the ground. Hence the need to lead designate. 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Rainmaker]

3 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

My understanding is that with say the F-18's Litening pod, PTRK on a moving target constantly updates and moves the release point of the bomb fall line. And the bomb fall line is tied to the diamond which moves with the moving target. You can see the horizontal cue bar move upwards as the target moves further away from your aircraft during an active pause. In the F-15E Lantirn pod, this is not happening because the pod or whatever does not have this capability. It's a 'static' bomb fall line post designate in the sense that the bomb fall line and release point are tied to the last static or fixed position of the designate diamond on the ground. Hence the need to lead designate. 

 

 

Realistically you should be leading all of them as none of the pods in DCS compute a leading trajectory for the bomb. As a result, you are always dragging the bomb off its natural trajectory and expending energy. Fortunately, the corrections in DCS are fairly forgiving. 
 

when it comes to the -15, CDES should basically provide the same des updates as any of the other jets do, its just bugged at the moment for point track movers as it should be updating unless there is user inputs.  Its still not really the ‘best’ way of doing it, but its == to everything else in DCS. 

[dporter22]

• Incorrect. As Greaselitenin said, in the other aircraft you point track a moving target, designate it as the target, the track and designation automatically remain on the target as ASL follows, the weapon is released at the continuously computed time, and the weapon tracks the laser to the target which is still being tracked and designated all the way to impact, which is why you have to ensure the pod sees the target the entire time.
• There is no leading.
• There are literally hundreds of tracks and tutorials showing this process.

Edited October 27, 2023 by dporter22

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

My point is that in the sim, the litening pod (Lpod) in the F18:

- Gives you the correct 'designate' point (ie, diamond remains right on the moving target) at the time of bomb release. I don't know if that means the bomb fall line calculated some lead. If it didn't, I would expect the Lpod LGB combo to miss very fast moving targets often and tutorials to suggest lead designating and ignoring use of PTRK for fast moving targets. I have not seen any tutorials like that. I think simmers assume PTRK is good for moving targets and expect the LGBs to hit every time (when within other procedure parameters). 

- Once PTRK captures a moving target (SCS to Lpod), the designate (TDC depress) HUD diamond done prior to PTRK, jumps to follow the PTRK gates on the moving target. TDC depress again just puts a small cross within the PTRK gates in the Lpod screen and isn't necessary.

The current F15E Lantirn (Tpod) cannot do the above even with CDES on (bug?) in that the PTRK cross hairs follow the moving target in the Tpod but the HUD designate diamond stays fixed on the ground. Hence, the need to lead designate each time. Am I right to say that when CDES is fixed in the F15E, in the sim at least, the HUD diamond would then follow the PTRK on the moving target? 

Edited October 28, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Rainmaker]

19 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

My point is that in the sim, the litening pod (Lpod) in the F18:

- Gives you the correct 'designate' point (ie, diamond remains right on the moving target) at the time of bomb release. I don't know if that means the bomb fall line calculated some lead. If it didn't, I would expect the Lpod LGB combo to miss very fast moving targets often and tutorials to suggest lead designating and ignoring use of PTRK for fast moving targets. I have not seen any tutorials like that. I think simmers assume PTRK is good for moving targets and expect the LGBs to hit every time (when within other procedure parameters). 

- Once PTRK captures a moving target (SCS to Lpod), the designate (TDC depress) HUD diamond done prior to PTRK, jumps to follow the PTRK gates on the moving target. TDC depress again just puts a small cross within the PTRK gates in the Lpod screen.

The current F15E Lantirn (Tpod) cannot do the above even with CDES on (bug?) in that the PTRK cross hairs follow the moving target in the Tpod but the HUD designate diamond stays fixed on the ground. Hence, the need to lead designate each time. Am I right to say that when CDES is fixed in the F15E, in the sim at least, the HUD diamond would then follow the PTRK on the moving target? 

 

Yes. Slew commands inhibit updates, but should update again upon stoppage. Tracking slew should constantly update but that’s the part that’s broken. Right now, it inhibits during all movement. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Rainmaker

[QuiGon]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:49 PM, dporter22 said:

• Incorrect. As Greaselitenin said, in the other aircraft you point track a moving target, designate it as the target, the track and designation automatically remain on the target as ASL follows, the weapon is released at the continuously computed time, and the weapon tracks the laser to the target which is still being tracked and designated all the way to impact, which is why you have to ensure the pod sees the target the entire time.

That's exatly what you should NOT do, especially if the target is moving at a high rate of speed. Even if the pod continiously updates the target designation all the way to bomb release, it will still only calculate the release point for the bomb to hit where the target is at the moment of bomb release. That can cause the bomb to fall short or overshoot despite laser guidance, especially if the target is moving fast. That's why you should always manually lead by designating a position ahead of the target's path of movement!

Edited October 29, 2023 by QuiGon

[dporter22]

Yes, that's correct for the F-15 because its suite/pod cannot track and designate moving targets. You'll notice that I was explaining how it works in other aircraft and not the F-15.

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by dporter22

[Rainmaker]

28 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

Yes, that's correct for the F-15 because its suite/pod cannot track and designate moving targets. You'll notice that I was explaining how it works in other aircraft and not the F-15.

 

 

You completely misunderstand how this works. Other aircraft behave exactly the way Quigon describes.  None of them compute any lead release or lasing. They all release in lag of the actual moving target. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Rainmaker

[dporter22]

I don't misunderstand anything, nor does Wags or anyone else who explains how it works. 

I didn't say they compute a lead release, I said they automatically and continuously track and lase the moving target, which is exactly what every manual says, every training mission demonstrates, and every video tutorial shows for the A-10, F-16, and F-18, but not the F-15 because it currently doesn't have that capability.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to comprehend. 

[Rainmaker]

21 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

I don't misunderstand anything, nor does Wags or anyone else who explains how it works. 

I didn't say they compute a lead release, I said they automatically and continuously track and lase the moving target, which is exactly what every manual says, every training mission demonstrates, and every video tutorial shows for the A-10, F-16, and F-18, but not the F-15 because it currently doesn't have that capability.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to comprehend. 

Tracking and lasing are universal for every single one of those aircraft in DCS.  Again, same TGP code base.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Rainmaker

[dporter22]

Apparently you haven't read this thread. 

[dorianR666]

1 hour ago, dporter22 said:

continuously track and lase the moving target, which is exactly what every manual says, every training mission demonstrates, and every video tutorial shows for the A-10, F-16, and F-18, but not the F-15 because it currently doesn't have that capability.

F15E in DCS does track and lase moving targets, just like all the other modules.

What it doesnt do is move the designation with the point track.

You seem to have these 3 things confused.

Edited October 28, 2023 by dorianR666

[Flying Duqi]

An F-15E can track a moving target in TPOD's PTRK mode for sure. That's what I have been doing when I bombed those moving convoys. You just have to work around the problem that the designation point not moving along with the track.

May I suggest you drop an LGB without designating it instead? You can use a GBU-12 for this (as a GBU-12 can be released in CDIP). Make your approach head-on with the target. Use PTRK to steadily track a target. Make a dive of 20-30 degrees (minimize pre-release time to the best of your ability). Place your aiming point at that target (or with some lead if you expect the system may give you a release point rather than just drop the bomb. Keep tracking while your bomb is making its way to the target until it hits. It usually works for me.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I tested the F18 litening pod + LGB using PTRK on tanks at 15knts and then fast moving APCs at 49knts.
No problem hitting the tanks but it was hit and miss (falls short) with the APCs depending on aircraft speed/altitude.

If I understand correctly, even with newer pods like the Litening, for moving targets using PTRK, the bomb fall line is dynamic and correct until point of bomb release. Then it depends if the LGB has enough energy to catch up with the moving target.  

I might be going a little off topic with the F18 but I'm curious what is the real life procedure for hitting fast moving targets with newer pods such as the Litening pod/F18:
- Fly head on to moving target or at a certain aspect to reduce chance of LGB falling short?
- Forget LGBs and choose another method like IR Mavericks or just strafe?
- Or is there a certain aircraft speed/altitude required for Litening-PTRK-LGB to succeed with fast movers?
- Or does the pilot use lead designation and if so, how do you get the laser to auto track the target with the designate point farther ahead (if it is even possible)? 

[dorianR666]

real FA-18C has an option to compute lead (MVTGT etc.).

this is not implemented in DCS.

[QuiGon]

@GrEaSeLiTeNiN This:

15 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

- Or does the pilot use lead designation and if so, how do you get the laser to auto track the target with the designate point farther ahead (if it is even possible)? 

As I explained here:

On 10/28/2023 at 2:26 PM, QuiGon said:

That's exatly what you should NOT do, especially if the target is moving at a high rate of speed. Even if the pod continiously updates the target designation all the way to bomb release, it will still only calculate the release point for the bomb to hit where the target is at the moment of bomb release. That can cause the bomb to fall short or overshoot despite laser guidance, especially if the target is moving fast. That's why you should always manually lead by designating a position ahead of the target's path of movement!

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by QuiGon

[Swordsman422]

In other aircraft like the F/A-18 or F-14, I try to release against a moving target from the head-on quarter. Since the bomb will be in lag pursuit anyway, it's far more likely to hit.

[Zahnatom]

On 10/28/2023 at 8:29 PM, dorianR666 said:

What it doesnt do is move the designation with the point track.

 

it does if you enable cdes

[dporter22]

As has been explained in this thread many times, it does not for a moving target.

[dorianR666]

9 hours ago, Zahnatom said:

it does if you enable cdes

it doesnt (bug)

[Zahnatom]

i remember cdes working(at least with slewing manually)