Petition to include the AM39 Exocet Antiship missile with Mirage F1M model

[apolloace]

Hi Everybody,

What I have come to know after going through the forums, is that the Exocet is not coming with the F1M model.

I understand that the F1M radar has a sea search mode. So what are the constraints of including the Exocet with it?

So, starting this topic, to see how many people are interested in the Exocet with the F1M model.

P.S. - Admins if not allowed you can remove this post.

[Iron Sights]

Sure, it adds to the capabilities of the aircraft for more types of missions. If it is a legitimate weapon that the Mirage carried and can be added, I say why wouldn’t you?

[Ashayar]

Stupid question here, but is the F1M capable to use it? I mean, the radar, the weapons system etc...

(this is a candid question, not an attack, if the F1 can use the exocet, then hell yeah baby!)

[apolloace]

 

1 hour ago, Ashayar said:

Stupid question here, but is the F1M capable to use it? I mean, the radar, the weapons system etc...

(this is a candid question, not an attack, if the F1 can use the exocet, then hell yeah baby!)

The Spanish F1M variant had the sea search mode with the radar, but never used the Exocet, because they had F/A-18 with Harpoons.

The Iraqi's were the only one with Exocets on Mirage F1 EQ variant & maybe also Morocco.

I presume the radar of F1M that Aerges is making supports it.

Can someone from the team enlighten us?

[Ashayar]

2 hours ago, apolloace said:

 

The Spanish F1M variant had the sea search mode with the radar, but never used the Exocet, because they had F/A-18 with Harpoons.

The Iraqi's were the only one with Exocets on Mirage F1 EQ variant & maybe also Morocco.

I presume the radar of F1M that Aerges is making supports it.

Can someone from the team enlighten us?

Interesting, thanks

[gnomechild]

I think we've already learned from the Sea Eagle that putting weapons on a jet with no ability to use them adds very little to the gameplay. And it detracts from the simulation to have so many parts of the jet painstakingly recreated only to just make up some capabilities because it would be "cool"

[EricToGo]

I absolutely support this and have been going somewhat deep on this topic. I have put everything I've found into a post here (Exocet in Part 2)

In short: Since there are a lot of different versions of the F1 it is somewhat hard to find something on this. Like someone above already mentioned the Spanish F1 were never intended so there is no information about this for the F1M. It could likely be possible to fire the Exocet though like I have explained in my post. Drawing conclusions from other parts of the aircraft all important prerequisites should be there.

[Bremspropeller]

^No. We should have an EQ6 with Exocets and other fancy bells and whistles insted.

[Bananabrai]

21 hours ago, apolloace said:

The Spanish F1M variant had the sea search mode with the radar

A sea search mode must not be related to the capability of shooting the missile.

It rather is about a rail that can release the missile, potential data connectors needed, a LRI that sends the firing command and hands-off data from an attack computer to the missile or something in that manner, whatever is the data flow of the AM.39, etc.

An example that comes to my mind:
The German F-4F had the hard points for the AIM-7, and a comparable radar as the F-4E, but the firing module/LRI was removed from the avionics bay/radar, so it could not fire AIM-7 Sparrows...

All this doesn't mean I am against it, it is meant as an explanation instead.
I'd also rather see an EQ6, cause that would also bring an AS.30L and potentially the Kh-29L.
I am not really hot about the M anyways, but that is personal preference and I will still enjoy it probably.

If they can find data that it would have been able to shoot system wise and it didn't because the missile just wasn't acquired, I am happy to get the AM.39 for the F1M.
At least we should not play DCS: Procurement, otherwise we need to limit our DCS stockpiles for EVERYTHING pretty drastically ^^
Lets see...

[EricToGo]

As mentioned in my other comment I made an entire post about this (here) stating some information I've found online about Exocet, Armat and AS.30L. I will put the part about the Exocet in a quote here.

Zitat

AM39 Exocet

This last one has been discussed a lot. The AM39 Exocet. I found this to be a rather complex one. Only the Iraqi F1EQ have fired Exocets and these have a version of the Cyrano IV with a special designation, namely the Cyrano IVM3.

On a Spanish forum there was a post made by someone about the Cyrano radar in the Venezuelan Mirage 5 and he said the following about the Iraqi F1EQs and the Cyrano IVM3 (translated): 
“The history of our (Meaning the Venezuelan Cyrano) Cyrano-IVM3 is curious, as it is a direct descendant of the "Ramadan" programme. "Ramadan" was a programme of upgrades made at Iraq's request to provide new capabilities to its Cyrano-IVs in service with its large fleet of Mirage F.1EQ-1/2/3/4/5/6, "Ramadan", resulted in the ability to use the "AM-39 Exocet" weapon system from multipurpose platforms, while everyone believed that Iraq was using the specialised "Agave" radar on its Mirage F.1 EQ-5 (the last ones received during the conflict against Iran) thus explaining the use of the Exocet, in reality, it was a heavily modified Cyrano-IVM with elements from the Thompson-CSF RDM-3 programmes that went into the Greek Mirage-2000EG and gave them Exocet capability (although basic RDMs and Cyrano-IVMs have certain air/sea capabilities in the former and air/ground in the latter _improved the newer the radar_), the ability to use the Exocet depends on the link between the radar and the INS Uliss navigation system (I can't remember the suffix, but I think it's 86) which provides inertial navigation information to the Exocet missile systems before they are launched.” 

 

Interestingly the late upgrade of the Mirage 5 of Venezuela, the Mirage 50EV, was upgraded with the Cyrano IVM3 radar as well and was fully capable of launching Exocets as stated on Wikipedia. Though, not only did the radar get replaced, but the inertial navigation system (INS) as well. It was replaced by one made by SAGEM. Coincidentally SAGEM is the company producing the Uliss INS. This makes it likely that in the case of the Mirage 50EV there also was a link between the INS and radar. 

Coming to the F1M upgrade made for Spain. The Wikipedia page mentions that part of the upgrade was “…added anti shipping capability with a modernised Cyrano IVM radar…” suggesting again that this last version of the Cyrano IV does incorporate all functions of previous versions (Cyrano IVM, IVMR, IVM3). Besides, right afterwards Exocet compatibility gets mentioned. Here the full paragraph: 

"In October 1996, Thomson-CSF was awarded a FFr700 million (US$96m) contract to upgrade 48 F1C/E single-seaters and 4 F1EDA trainers to Mirage F1M standard (see below). Ex-Qatar Mirage F1s were left outside the upgrade, as it was a different version, and were the first ones to be retired. As well as a service-life extension, this improved the avionics and added anti-shipping capability with a modernised Cyrano IVM radar and Exocet compatibility. "

To double down on this, I found an article from 2011 in the “Archivo Mirage” about the Cyrano IV radars history and it states the radar of the F1M being “…digitised, as its readings can be displayed on a colour multifunction display … replacing the old monochrome display”. Further the following is said: 

“This allows for a clearer and more dynamic presentation of the data, and the data can interact in real time with the rest of the aircraft's subsystems, thanks to the 1553B data bus.” 

This should basically be it. The “digitised” Cyrano IVM can communicate with other systems and thus probably also with the INS. This possibly brings it down to being a wiring issue first and foremost. Because of all this I don’t think it would be that farfetched to add the Exocet to the F1M. Again, this could be disabled in the mission editor by the people that don’t like it.

Also, this probably is out of the scope for the DCS Mirage F1, but another article on “Archivo Mirage” about the Mirage F1 MF2000 by ASTRAC mentions Exocet capability. Yes, it has a different radar and a "GPS-upgraded SIGMA 95 laser gyro intertial navigator" but also uses the 1553 data bus for the systems. This also somewhat reinforces the claim that Exocet capability is dependent on a link between radar and INS.

@Bananabrai In the F1M upgrade a databus was installed that let's all parts of the aircraft communicate with eachother, the radar has been modified to include a sea search mode. Imo hardpoint wiring should not matter for DCS (besides smart and dumb hardpoints those should matter).

Fun fact: I've found that the module that enables guidance of SARH missiles was removed in the F1M upgrade programme. Whilst that would make it realistic to remove Super 530F from the F1M I don't see any good reason why it should be done for DCS purposes.

And I agree with @Bremspropeller that the EQ6 would be the best option for this.

[Loukuins]

EQ-6 is gonna be hard tho, no info on the RWR and such, also, metric cockpit be aware

[Northstar98]

I'd much rather we see a Mirage F1 variant that was actually integrated with the AM39 Exocet, namely Iraqi F1EQ-5 and -6, though there's also the Morrocan F1 MF2000 ASTRAC. Not only would they have Exocet capability and a few other stores, but the EQ-5 and -6 would fit on a couple of our maps and are also quite historically relevant.

All we know so far is that the radar has a relevant mode, the wikipedia page @EricToGo quoted stating that the Cyrano IVM has Exocet compatibility doesn't actually cite anything supporting it (that's not to say that it doesn't, it's just that it's unsupported).

For air-launched AShMs, the Spanish used the Harpoon with their P-3s and Hornets.

[Bananabrai]

On 7/27/2023 at 5:49 PM, EricToGo said:

In the F1M upgrade a databus was installed that let's all parts of the aircraft communicate with eachothe

Which does not fully confirm something is usable or not.
I know bus systems. EF is glued together by them.

With that logic we should also have every US arsenal weapon on the -15/-16/-18...
I know that a bus makes it a lot easier to integrate, I am not fighting you 100%, I would love to have an AGM-84D and -119 on the Viper, and for sure it is possible.
But still the software of every computer and BC on that bus needs to know those new signals, so patches are involved, testing the new SW, etc.
And the Spanish never integrated such a fictional patch/upgrade. That is the difficulty I see.