R-27T/ET Tactics - How to use correctly?

[CommandT]

Hi guys, 

I was hoping someone could clear up my confusion on the R-27T/ET. I understand that these must use the IRST to have a lock before being able to shoot. So my confusion lies in this concept - the IRST has significantly less range to lock a target than a radar, so what is even the point of having these missiles, especially the ET variant when you can't actually shoot them until you get a lot closer? 

I understand there's decent use cases for closer ranges where the R-73 doesn't quite have the legs, especially chasing a target, but am I right in saying there's effectively no way of using the R-27T/ET at it's maximum range? Or maybe I'm missing something. 

Thanks!

[Ironhand]

4 hours ago, CommandT said:

…but am I right in saying there's effectively no way of using the R-27T/ET at it's maximum range? Or maybe I'm missing something.

You’re not missing anything. The limiting factor is that the missiles’ IR seekers have to have their own lock on the target. The IRST is just telling the seekers where to look.

So, in the case of these missiles, range is simply a measure of how far it, technically, can fly.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Ironhand

[CommandT]

1 hour ago, Ironhand said:

You’re not missing anything. The limiting factor is that the missiles’ IR seekers have to have their own lock on the target. The IRST is just telling the seekers where to lock.

So, in the case of these missiles, range is simply a measure of how far it, technically, can fly.

 

Got you! Thanks!

[Seaeagle]

What Ironhand said.

4 hours ago, CommandT said:

I understand that these must use the IRST to have a lock before being able to shoot.

No the missile's own IR seeker needs to have a lock before you can launch - the IRST(Infra Red Search and Track) system is just one of three available methods(the radar and the helmet sight being the two other) you can use for designating  a target for it.

The advantage of using the IRST for this is that, like the missile IR seeker, its "emission free"(doesn't alert the enemy RWR) and that it generally resembles the properties of the IR seeker - i.e. if the IRST can find the target, there is a good chance the the IR seeker can too.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Seaeagle

[CommandT]

So you can loc

5 hours ago, Seaeagle said:

What Ironhand said.

No the missile's own IR seeker needs to have a lock before you can launch - the IRST(Infra Red Search and Track) system is just one of three available methods(the radar and the helmet sight being the two other) you can use for designating  a target for it.

The advantage of using the IRST for this is that, like the missile IR seeker, its "emission free"(doesn't alert the enemy RWR) and that it generally resembles the properties of the IR seeker - i.e. if the IRST can find the target, there is a good chance the the IR seeker can too.

 

So you can lock a target with the radar alone whilst the IRST is off and shoot the R-27T/ET? I was under the impression that it's either IRST alone or Radar + IRST for it be able to lock and transfer the lock to the seeker head of the missile?

[GGTharos]

There's no 'transfer' - the missile seeker is cued to look in that direction and it does it's own work for locking the target.   This is why pre-emptive flares should work. This mechanism doesn't really apply to DCS, at least not consistently.

[Soulres]

21 hours ago, CommandT said:

- the IRST has significantly less range to lock a target than a radar, so what is even the point of having these missiles, especially the ET variant when you can't actually shoot them until you get a lot closer? 

Thanks!

-the R27ER and R27ET (E standing for Extended Range) are basically the same missile just a different seeker head.

-While YES the IRST has less range than the radar, However UNLIKE radar, which when you use RADAR EVERYONE CAN SEE YOU, IRST on the other hand they cant see, but you can see them out to 15 - 20 km where as R73s at best go 4km. (remember higher altitudes increase ranges for all missiles.)

-Example, if you get behind a guy and shoot a 27ER, he will know RIGHT AWAY and can Chaff and maneuver, and being that the Flankers/Migs arnt the best tools in the shed, Can get out performed by F16s an F18s and destroyed savagely with Aim9x's with a slight turn of the head. BUT if you use a 27ET they wont know until it hits them. 

-Another Example, if you're chasing after someone, You can track them with your IRST on and your Radar OFF. Where as anyone else will chase you with the radar on always telling you exactly where they are, the IRST wont pop up. They might try and turn back around which you can slap them with anything even guns as they'll not be expecting you right there.

-The IRST is the bread and butter of the flankers and migs, which gives you an edge over far superior aircraft. 

 

[TheFreshPrince]

The R27-ET has a better range than the only other "fire and forget" missile R-77 and is a "stealth" missile as said. To get a launch authorization, the seeker needs to see the target, but you can lock the target with the radar first. At what range you get the LA depends on the IR-signature of the bandit. An aggressive F-14 at altitude with burner will eat the R-27ET at maximum range right in the face. This might easily be 50km! You can also send it silently before or after engaging with radar missile to mask the probability of an IR missile and the bandit might eat it as well while defending from the radar missile. It gives you a lot of nice tactics!

Edited August 14, 2023 by TheFreshPrince

[Ironhand]

16 hours ago, CommandT said:

So you can lock a target with the radar alone whilst the IRST is off and shoot the R-27T/ET? I was under the impression that it's either IRST alone or Radar + IRST for it be able to lock and transfer the lock to the seeker head of the missile?

In the sim, yes. Or it seems so. Then again, the sim's depiction of the interaction between the radar and EOS (IRST) complexes is somewhat hazy. In the real world pilot's manual, there's a brief section on what each complex does. The radar complex deals with radar homing missiles. It specifies issiles with "radar homing heads", does not simply refer to "missiles", and makes no mention of IR missiles. EOS is specifically depicted as interacting with IR missiles. Again, not the generic term "missiles". So there seems to be that dichotomy in real life. If so, you would not be able to cue an IR missile using the radar. But the radar and EOS work together in real life. With radar selected as primary, radar provides EOS with the target's angular coordinates (and vice versa should EOS be primary). EOS then tries to obtain its own lock. If successful the EOS lock indicator would also illuminate on the annunciation panel in addition to the radar lock indicator.

In the sim, however, I have never seen those two indicators illuminated at the same time. It may be that this interaction is actually "modeled" but there isn't the cockpit cue to inform you that it's happening. That some sort of interaction is modeled is obvious in that you will, in certain situations with radar as primary, suddenly have the EOS/Radar cue appear on the HUD even though you only have radar selected. So it may be that things are modeled to work as they would in real life but without the additional cue. Or it may be that they simply model the radar as cuing IR missiles where to look. I prefer to pretend that it's the former. Then again, it could be that the radar complex really can cue IR missiles where to look.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ironhand

[Seaeagle]

16 hours ago, CommandT said:

So you can lock a target with the radar alone whilst the IRST is off and shoot the R-27T/ET?

Yes - you can also use the helmet sight alone for this.

16 hours ago, CommandT said:

I was under the impression that it's either IRST alone or Radar + IRST for it be able to lock and transfer the lock to the seeker head of the missile?

No because all you are doing with those sensors, is to pick a target of interest and determine its angular coordinates, which in turn the weapon's control system uses to cue the missile seeker to look in the right direction in order for it to obtain a target lock of its own. The only other thing they are doing is to find the range to target in order to determine when the missile can be launched and cover the distance.

So unlike with the SARH version of the missile, there is no direct dependency of a particular sensor type nor any ability to control the IR version after launch.

 

[Pavlin_33]

The "T" missiles were developed for heavy ECM environment, but we don't have this benefit in DCS. Regular "T" variant, is practically useless in some engagments, against F-16 or A-10, as it has same effective range as the R-73.

[GGTharos]

This ^

The thing about having a big warhead is that this is what is recommend against a bomber.  DCS doesn't represent this sort of thing too well.

[Volator]

True, I'd rather take two more R73s or the 27R/ER than the T/ET. The latter simply doesn't offer any advantage, even range-wise in a tail chase it is only minimally better than the 73 but at the cost of more weight and drag, and head-on its sensor will fare no better than the 73, severely limiting its usable range. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Volator

[Pavlin_33]

1 hour ago, Volator said:

True, I'd rather take two more R73s or the 27R/ER than the T/ET. The latter simply doesn't offer any advantage, even range-wise in a tail chase it is only minimally better than the 73 but at the cost of more weight and drag, and head-on its sensor will fare no better than the 73, severely limiting its usable range. 

 

In my humble opinion 27ET is much better. 27T on the other hand I see no practical reason to carry, except if you want to have two extra IR missiles.

[CommandT]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:59 PM, Ironhand said:

In the sim, yes. Or it seems so. Then again, the sim's depiction of the interaction between the radar and EOS (IRST) complexes is somewhat hazy. In the real world pilot's manual, there's a brief section on what each complex does. The radar complex deals with radar homing missiles. It specifies issiles with "radar homing heads", does not simply refer to "missiles", and makes no mention of IR missiles. EOS is specifically depicted as interacting with IR missiles. Again, not the generic term "missiles". So there seems to be that dichotomy in real life. If so, you would not be able to cue an IR missile using the radar. But the radar and EOS work together in real life. With radar selected as primary, radar provides EOS with the target's angular coordinates (and vice versa should EOS be primary). EOS then tries to obtain its own lock. If successful the EOS lock indicator would also illuminate on the annunciation panel in addition to the radar lock indicator.

In the sim, however, I have never seen those two indicators illuminated at the same time. It may be that this interaction is actually "modeled" but there isn't the cockpit cue to inform you that it's happening. That some sort of interaction is modeled is obvious in that you will, in certain situations with radar as primary, suddenly have the EOS/Radar cue appear on the HUD even though you only have radar selected. So it may be that things are modeled to work as they would in real life but without the additional cue. Or it may be that they simply model the radar as cuing IR missiles where to look. I prefer to pretend that it's the former. Then again, it could be that the radar complex really can cue IR missiles where to look.

 

Thanks for the explanation. Do you have access to the Su-27 pilot's manual? Is there any way of getting a copy of that somehow? Cheers!

[Ironhand]

2 hours ago, CommandT said:

Thanks for the explanation. Do you have access to the Su-27 pilot's manual? Is there any way of getting a copy of that somehow? Cheers!

Yes. It’s in Russian.

Check PM

Edited August 16, 2023 by Ironhand

[BBCRF3]