R-27T/ET Tactics - How to use correctly?

[CommandT]

Hi guys, 

I was hoping someone could clear up my confusion on the R-27T/ET. I understand that these must use the IRST to have a lock before being able to shoot. So my confusion lies in this concept - the IRST has significantly less range to lock a target than a radar, so what is even the point of having these missiles, especially the ET variant when you can't actually shoot them until you get a lot closer? 

I understand there's decent use cases for closer ranges where the R-73 doesn't quite have the legs, especially chasing a target, but am I right in saying there's effectively no way of using the R-27T/ET at it's maximum range? Or maybe I'm missing something. 

Thanks!

[Ironhand]

4 hours ago, CommandT said:

…but am I right in saying there's effectively no way of using the R-27T/ET at it's maximum range? Or maybe I'm missing something.

You’re not missing anything. The limiting factor is that the missiles’ IR seekers have to have their own lock on the target. The IRST is just telling the seekers where to look.

So, in the case of these missiles, range is simply a measure of how far it, technically, can fly.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Ironhand

[CommandT]

1 hour ago, Ironhand said:

You’re not missing anything. The limiting factor is that the missiles’ IR seekers have to have their own lock on the target. The IRST is just telling the seekers where to lock.

So, in the case of these missiles, range is simply a measure of how far it, technically, can fly.

 

Got you! Thanks!

[Seaeagle]

What Ironhand said.

4 hours ago, CommandT said:

I understand that these must use the IRST to have a lock before being able to shoot.

No the missile's own IR seeker needs to have a lock before you can launch - the IRST(Infra Red Search and Track) system is just one of three available methods(the radar and the helmet sight being the two other) you can use for designating  a target for it.

The advantage of using the IRST for this is that, like the missile IR seeker, its "emission free"(doesn't alert the enemy RWR) and that it generally resembles the properties of the IR seeker - i.e. if the IRST can find the target, there is a good chance the the IR seeker can too.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Seaeagle

[CommandT]

So you can loc

5 hours ago, Seaeagle said:

What Ironhand said.

No the missile's own IR seeker needs to have a lock before you can launch - the IRST(Infra Red Search and Track) system is just one of three available methods(the radar and the helmet sight being the two other) you can use for designating  a target for it.

The advantage of using the IRST for this is that, like the missile IR seeker, its "emission free"(doesn't alert the enemy RWR) and that it generally resembles the properties of the IR seeker - i.e. if the IRST can find the target, there is a good chance the the IR seeker can too.

 

So you can lock a target with the radar alone whilst the IRST is off and shoot the R-27T/ET? I was under the impression that it's either IRST alone or Radar + IRST for it be able to lock and transfer the lock to the seeker head of the missile?

[GGTharos]

There's no 'transfer' - the missile seeker is cued to look in that direction and it does it's own work for locking the target.   This is why pre-emptive flares should work. This mechanism doesn't really apply to DCS, at least not consistently.

[Soulres]

21 hours ago, CommandT said:

- the IRST has significantly less range to lock a target than a radar, so what is even the point of having these missiles, especially the ET variant when you can't actually shoot them until you get a lot closer? 

Thanks!

-the R27ER and R27ET (E standing for Extended Range) are basically the same missile just a different seeker head.

-While YES the IRST has less range than the radar, However UNLIKE radar, which when you use RADAR EVERYONE CAN SEE YOU, IRST on the other hand they cant see, but you can see them out to 15 - 20 km where as R73s at best go 4km. (remember higher altitudes increase ranges for all missiles.)

-Example, if you get behind a guy and shoot a 27ER, he will know RIGHT AWAY and can Chaff and maneuver, and being that the Flankers/Migs arnt the best tools in the shed, Can get out performed by F16s an F18s and destroyed savagely with Aim9x's with a slight turn of the head. BUT if you use a 27ET they wont know until it hits them. 

-Another Example, if you're chasing after someone, You can track them with your IRST on and your Radar OFF. Where as anyone else will chase you with the radar on always telling you exactly where they are, the IRST wont pop up. They might try and turn back around which you can slap them with anything even guns as they'll not be expecting you right there.

-The IRST is the bread and butter of the flankers and migs, which gives you an edge over far superior aircraft. 

 

[TheFreshPrince]

The R27-ET has a better range than the only other "fire and forget" missile R-77 and is a "stealth" missile as said. To get a launch authorization, the seeker needs to see the target, but you can lock the target with the radar first. At what range you get the LA depends on the IR-signature of the bandit. An aggressive F-14 at altitude with burner will eat the R-27ET at maximum range right in the face. This might easily be 50km! You can also send it silently before or after engaging with radar missile to mask the probability of an IR missile and the bandit might eat it as well while defending from the radar missile. It gives you a lot of nice tactics!

Edited August 14, 2023 by TheFreshPrince

[Ironhand]

16 hours ago, CommandT said:

So you can lock a target with the radar alone whilst the IRST is off and shoot the R-27T/ET? I was under the impression that it's either IRST alone or Radar + IRST for it be able to lock and transfer the lock to the seeker head of the missile?

In the sim, yes. Or it seems so. Then again, the sim's depiction of the interaction between the radar and EOS (IRST) complexes is somewhat hazy. In the real world pilot's manual, there's a brief section on what each complex does. The radar complex deals with radar homing missiles. It specifies issiles with "radar homing heads", does not simply refer to "missiles", and makes no mention of IR missiles. EOS is specifically depicted as interacting with IR missiles. Again, not the generic term "missiles". So there seems to be that dichotomy in real life. If so, you would not be able to cue an IR missile using the radar. But the radar and EOS work together in real life. With radar selected as primary, radar provides EOS with the target's angular coordinates (and vice versa should EOS be primary). EOS then tries to obtain its own lock. If successful the EOS lock indicator would also illuminate on the annunciation panel in addition to the radar lock indicator.

In the sim, however, I have never seen those two indicators illuminated at the same time. It may be that this interaction is actually "modeled" but there isn't the cockpit cue to inform you that it's happening. That some sort of interaction is modeled is obvious in that you will, in certain situations with radar as primary, suddenly have the EOS/Radar cue appear on the HUD even though you only have radar selected. So it may be that things are modeled to work as they would in real life but without the additional cue. Or it may be that they simply model the radar as cuing IR missiles where to look. I prefer to pretend that it's the former. Then again, it could be that the radar complex really can cue IR missiles where to look.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ironhand

[Seaeagle]

16 hours ago, CommandT said:

So you can lock a target with the radar alone whilst the IRST is off and shoot the R-27T/ET?

Yes - you can also use the helmet sight alone for this.

16 hours ago, CommandT said:

I was under the impression that it's either IRST alone or Radar + IRST for it be able to lock and transfer the lock to the seeker head of the missile?

No because all you are doing with those sensors, is to pick a target of interest and determine its angular coordinates, which in turn the weapon's control system uses to cue the missile seeker to look in the right direction in order for it to obtain a target lock of its own. The only other thing they are doing is to find the range to target in order to determine when the missile can be launched and cover the distance.

So unlike with the SARH version of the missile, there is no direct dependency of a particular sensor type nor any ability to control the IR version after launch.

 

[Pavlin_33]

The "T" missiles were developed for heavy ECM environment, but we don't have this benefit in DCS. Regular "T" variant, is practically useless in some engagments, against F-16 or A-10, as it has same effective range as the R-73.

[GGTharos]

This ^

The thing about having a big warhead is that this is what is recommend against a bomber.  DCS doesn't represent this sort of thing too well.

[Volator]

True, I'd rather take two more R73s or the 27R/ER than the T/ET. The latter simply doesn't offer any advantage, even range-wise in a tail chase it is only minimally better than the 73 but at the cost of more weight and drag, and head-on its sensor will fare no better than the 73, severely limiting its usable range. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Volator

[Pavlin_33]

1 hour ago, Volator said:

True, I'd rather take two more R73s or the 27R/ER than the T/ET. The latter simply doesn't offer any advantage, even range-wise in a tail chase it is only minimally better than the 73 but at the cost of more weight and drag, and head-on its sensor will fare no better than the 73, severely limiting its usable range. 

 

In my humble opinion 27ET is much better. 27T on the other hand I see no practical reason to carry, except if you want to have two extra IR missiles.

[CommandT]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:59 PM, Ironhand said:

In the sim, yes. Or it seems so. Then again, the sim's depiction of the interaction between the radar and EOS (IRST) complexes is somewhat hazy. In the real world pilot's manual, there's a brief section on what each complex does. The radar complex deals with radar homing missiles. It specifies issiles with "radar homing heads", does not simply refer to "missiles", and makes no mention of IR missiles. EOS is specifically depicted as interacting with IR missiles. Again, not the generic term "missiles". So there seems to be that dichotomy in real life. If so, you would not be able to cue an IR missile using the radar. But the radar and EOS work together in real life. With radar selected as primary, radar provides EOS with the target's angular coordinates (and vice versa should EOS be primary). EOS then tries to obtain its own lock. If successful the EOS lock indicator would also illuminate on the annunciation panel in addition to the radar lock indicator.

In the sim, however, I have never seen those two indicators illuminated at the same time. It may be that this interaction is actually "modeled" but there isn't the cockpit cue to inform you that it's happening. That some sort of interaction is modeled is obvious in that you will, in certain situations with radar as primary, suddenly have the EOS/Radar cue appear on the HUD even though you only have radar selected. So it may be that things are modeled to work as they would in real life but without the additional cue. Or it may be that they simply model the radar as cuing IR missiles where to look. I prefer to pretend that it's the former. Then again, it could be that the radar complex really can cue IR missiles where to look.

 

Thanks for the explanation. Do you have access to the Su-27 pilot's manual? Is there any way of getting a copy of that somehow? Cheers!

[Ironhand]

2 hours ago, CommandT said:

Thanks for the explanation. Do you have access to the Su-27 pilot's manual? Is there any way of getting a copy of that somehow? Cheers!

Yes. It’s in Russian.

Check PM

Edited August 16, 2023 by Ironhand

[BBCRF3]

[Irisz]

I would like to draw everyone's attention when looking for information about the R-27 ALAMO missile that the missile family marked with the number 1, i.e. the R-27R1 - R-27T1 - R-27ER1 - R-27ET1 missiles, has nothing to do with the original Soviet products because the production has become separate and Russia uses a different R-27 missile. In any case, you should know that the weapons that are manufactured for EXPORT are ALWAYS weaker than Russia's weapons. This is how Russia defends itself against being attacked with its own weapons!

"Насколько я понимаю ситуацию, после распада Советского Союза, «Артем» продолжал выпускать полную линейку ракет и работать в качестве поставщика для российских вооруженных сил и на экспорт для российских истребителей.
После 2014 года было введено эмбарго на все оборонные торги с Россией, «Артем» был отрезан от Госмкб «Вымпел» в Москве, и в настоящее время компания опираясь на свои значительные проектные мощности разрабатывает новую продуктовую линейку на базе Р-27. В стремлении разработать новую линейку продуктов, независимых от российских компонентов, два украинских предприятия — Артем и Радионикс — вступили в кооперацию по программе создания новой версии ракеты воздух-воздух Р-27 «Вымпел». Получается, что цифра 1 используется для обозначения версии собственной разработки. Либо существует договоренность с Вымпелом о том что Артем будет самостоятельно выпускать только экспортный вариант Р-27 с цифрой "1". Чтобы не иметь претензий со стороны Вымпела. Но это только догадки."

"As I understand the situation, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Artem continued to produce a full line of missiles and operate as a supplier to the Russian military and for export to Russian fighter aircraft.
After 2014, an embargo was introduced on all defense trades with Russia, Artem was cut off from the Vympel State Design Bureau in Moscow, and the company is currently building on its significant design capacity to develop a new product line based on the R-27. In an effort to develop a new line of products independent of Russian components, two Ukrainian enterprises - Artem and Radioniks - entered into cooperation on a program to create a new version of the R-27 Vympel air-to-air missile. It turns out that the number 1 is used to indicate the version of our own development. Or there is an agreement with Vympel that Artem will independently produce only the export version of the R-27 with the number “1”. To avoid any claims from Vympel. But these are just guesses."

http://forums.airforce.ru/sovremennost/7587-mig-29um-ukrainskie-mushki/#post177450

[okopanja]

41 minutes ago, Irisz said:

I would like to draw everyone's attention when looking for information about the R-27 ALAMO missile that the missile family marked with the number 1, i.e. the R-27R1 - R-27T1 - R-27ER1 - R-27ET1 missiles, has nothing to do with the original Soviet products because the production has become separate and Russia uses a different R-27 missile. In any case, you should know that the weapons that are manufactured for EXPORT are ALWAYS weaker than Russia's weapons. This is how Russia defends itself against being attacked with its own weapons!

"Насколько я понимаю ситуацию, после распада Советского Союза, «Артем» продолжал выпускать полную линейку ракет и работать в качестве поставщика для российских вооруженных сил и на экспорт для российских истребителей.
После 2014 года было введено эмбарго на все оборонные торги с Россией, «Артем» был отрезан от Госмкб «Вымпел» в Москве, и в настоящее время компания опираясь на свои значительные проектные мощности разрабатывает новую продуктовую линейку на базе Р-27. В стремлении разработать новую линейку продуктов, независимых от российских компонентов, два украинских предприятия — Артем и Радионикс — вступили в кооперацию по программе создания новой версии ракеты воздух-воздух Р-27 «Вымпел». Получается, что цифра 1 используется для обозначения версии собственной разработки. Либо существует договоренность с Вымпелом о том что Артем будет самостоятельно выпускать только экспортный вариант Р-27 с цифрой "1". Чтобы не иметь претензий со стороны Вымпела. Но это только догадки."

"As I understand the situation, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Artem continued to produce a full line of missiles and operate as a supplier to the Russian military and for export to Russian fighter aircraft.
After 2014, an embargo was introduced on all defense trades with Russia, Artem was cut off from the Vympel State Design Bureau in Moscow, and the company is currently building on its significant design capacity to develop a new product line based on the R-27. In an effort to develop a new line of products independent of Russian components, two Ukrainian enterprises - Artem and Radioniks - entered into cooperation on a program to create a new version of the R-27 Vympel air-to-air missile. It turns out that the number 1 is used to indicate the version of our own development. Or there is an agreement with Vympel that Artem will independently produce only the export version of the R-27 with the number “1”. To avoid any claims from Vympel. But these are just guesses."

http://forums.airforce.ru/sovremennost/7587-mig-29um-ukrainskie-mushki/#post177450

While this statement is interesting, I do not believe that statement about versions with 1 is accurate:

http://roe.ru/esp/catalog/las-fuerzas-aeroespaciales/misiles-de-aviones/r-27er1/

The linked page is in russian tld domain, hence these appear to be a russian updated versions.

At minimum I would expect them to use more modern components even if basic operation would remain the same.

[Irisz]

3 minutes ago, okopanja said:

While this statement is interesting, I do not believe that statement about versions with 1 is accurate:

http://roe.ru/esp/catalog/las-fuerzas-aeroespaciales/misiles-de-aviones/r-27er1/

The linked page is in russian tld domain, hence these appear to be a russian updated versions.

At minimum I would expect them to use more modern components even if basic operation would remain the same.

The range for the R-27ER is reduced from 130 km to 95 km! For the sake of export, so that it is not dangerous for Russia. I want to focus on this, to clarify what the developers are doing, because this is a deliberate weakening of the missiles because they have no other information. It should have been an upgrade with the same ranges, not a 35km reduction!

Focus on export, all weapons are export downgraded versions, not genuine Russian or Soviet products!

[Irisz]

Read here that the Ukrainian missiles have nothing to do with Vympel!

"The Ukrainian company Artyom has received a contract worth more than $ 200 million from a foreign customer, involving the production of medium-range R-27 air-to-air guided missiles [...], Defense Blog reports.

The publication does not name a specific customer, assuming that we are talking about an Asian country, presumably India or Indonesia. According to the Defense Blog, the signed agreement was the largest for Artem over the past 10-15 years. The Ukrainian company, as the publication notes, has already received an advance payment and has begun to fulfill the order.

Defense Blog reminds that the P-27 was developed by the Russian design bureau "Vimpel" and was mass-produced by Russia and Ukraine. According to the publication, these missiles are designed for MiG-29, MiG-31, Su-27, Su-30, Su-33, Su-34 and Su-35 aircraft."

https://vpk.name/en/527760_ukraine-has-received-the-largest-contract-for-the-production-of-russian-r-27-missiles.html

That's exactly what I wrote above! The ED quietly does not say anything about this!

  

Here you can see the Old R-27ER and R-27ET missiles!

Try this altitude against a MiG-31 flying at 20,000 meters at 2,500 km/h and flying head on, if you sweat blood, it won't go over 100 km!

I think this is a deliberate weakening!

Edited June 9, 2024 by Irisz

[okopanja]

43 minutes ago, Irisz said:

Read here that the Ukrainian missiles have nothing to do with Vympel!

"The Ukrainian company Artyom has received a contract worth more than $ 200 million from a foreign customer, involving the production of medium-range R-27 air-to-air guided missiles [...], Defense Blog reports.

The publication does not name a specific customer, assuming that we are talking about an Asian country, presumably India or Indonesia. According to the Defense Blog, the signed agreement was the largest for Artem over the past 10-15 years. The Ukrainian company, as the publication notes, has already received an advance payment and has begun to fulfill the order.

Defense Blog reminds that the P-27 was developed by the Russian design bureau "Vimpel" and was mass-produced by Russia and Ukraine. According to the publication, these missiles are designed for MiG-29, MiG-31, Su-27, Su-30, Su-33, Su-34 and Su-35 aircraft."

https://vpk.name/en/527760_ukraine-has-received-the-largest-contract-for-the-production-of-russian-r-27-missiles.html

That's exactly what I wrote above! The ED quietly does not say anything about this!

  

Here you can see the Old R-27ER and R-27ET missiles!

Try this altitude against a MiG-31 flying at 20,000 meters at 2,500 km/h and flying head on, if you sweat blood, if you sweat blood, it won't go over 100 km!

I think this is a deliberate weakening!

 

I read many of those blogs and they all container highly speculative generic information. Nothing to actually draw firm conclusions on. My understanding is that these missiles are pretty much in legacy state in Russia. In UKR they simply did not have a better idea/resources and simply tried to replace the seekers in the meanwhile.

Regarding to R-27ER: I hear the same claims repeatedly about it being nerfed and so on. I must say I do not agree to this, at least not fully.

Sometime during last week I fired R-27ER in HOJ mode on F-15C at about 12km altitude ( I was around 11km, Mach 1.5-1.8), and it hit him nicely from 109km distance (close to 60 seconds, he reduced his altitude to 8000m in the meanwhile and started to turn). Also in the past I haved fired R-27ER at jamming F-15C at high alt from 150km distance (tacview). The missile did not reach him, but my estimate was that if I waited longer and fired from 110-130km,  the missile would have hit him at Mach 3-3.5 speed.

Therefore the limitation of the R-27ER in DCS does not come from the kinetic performance but rather from the fact that after 60seconds power supply is turned off and missile stopped

This dude did not maneuver much, pretty much thought he was safe to accelerate straight to spam amraams at the people who were taking off. The moment the target starts to maneuver the energy losses will occur, and this is also something that limits the range.

If we are talking about true reasons why R-27ER is of limited use , main reason is the launch warning in DCS which assumes that missile guidance signal is detectable, this is what leads to target going instantly into notch position and loss of lock.

For the FF Mig-29 the ED will have to rework the missile itself, so hopefully for good or bad these concerns will be clarified.

 

[Irisz]

In its activities, Rosoboronexport supports implementation of large-scale projects aimed at the improvement of defense capacity of partner countries, and at comprehensive consolidation and innovative development of enterprises and entities of Russia’s MIC. 

http://roe.ru/eng/rosoboronexport/status/

What do you think this suggests? It supports other projects, it is described above that they have become separate! Or explain why it is rational to produce exactly the same missile with two different companies in Ukraine and Russia?

What I described seems very true!

Or here is another interesting question that shows that what I wrote seems to be confirmed!

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/

 

What do you see here? Original Russian products that exist only in Russia or downgraded export products that are not dangerous for Russia!

For example, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the Su-30SM2 already exists and the Su-35S also has a new and better radar from the Irbis-E radar. Which leads us to conclude that since the Su-30SM and Su-35S are outdated, they can be exported because Russia has better, more modern weapons than these aircraft. Even so, you can conclude why Russia would not use Export products.

Russia uses R-37M not Export RVV-BD. To write another example. The RVV-BD has a range of 200 km, and the R-37M has a range of 398 km. And they have an 810 product with an even greater range, exclusively for the Su-57!

That's why you should ask him what ED is doing, because he really doesn't like to talk about what's going on. It just pretends that this is an improvement, while the range of the missiles decreases.

On 6/9/2024 at 9:49 AM, okopanja said:

I read many of those blogs and they all container highly speculative generic information. Nothing to actually draw firm conclusions on. My understanding is that these missiles are pretty much in legacy state in Russia. In UKR they simply did not have a better idea/resources and simply tried to replace the seekers in the meanwhile.

Regarding to R-27ER: I hear the same claims repeatedly about it being nerfed and so on. I must say I do not agree to this, at least not fully.

Sometime during last week I fired R-27ER in HOJ mode on F-15C at about 12km altitude ( I was around 11km, Mach 1.5-1.8), and it hit him nicely from 109km distance (close to 60 seconds, he reduced his altitude to 8000m in the meanwhile and started to turn). Also in the past I haved fired R-27ER at jamming F-15C at high alt from 150km distance (tacview). The missile did not reach him, but my estimate was that if I waited longer and fired from 110-130km,  the missile would have hit him at Mach 3-3.5 speed.

Therefore the limitation of the R-27ER in DCS does not come from the kinetic performance but rather from the fact that after 60seconds power supply is turned off and missile stopped

This dude did not maneuver much, pretty much thought he was safe to accelerate straight to spam amraams at the people who were taking off. The moment the target starts to maneuver the energy losses will occur, and this is also something that limits the range.

If we are talking about true reasons why R-27ER is of limited use , main reason is the launch warning in DCS which assumes that missile guidance signal is detectable, this is what leads to target going instantly into notch position and loss of lock.

For the FF Mig-29 the ED will have to rework the missile itself, so hopefully for good or bad these concerns will be clarified.

 

The point is to put together what's going on, I'm just criticizing things so that everyone is adequately aware that they're getting the best in the DCS World gaming experience! I want the best!

Edited June 10, 2024 by Irisz

[Irisz]

Overall, I would like to make forum members aware that if someone searches or talks about R-27 missiles marked 1 on this forum, it is not about the OLD Soviet missiles. So in the case of ED, if you use these missiles as information about what it can do, you create a fantasy missile in DCS World. Because the Su-27 - Su-33 MiG-29 missiles use OLD Soviet Vympel missiles manufactured around 1990. However, if ED uses the data of the current EXPORT missiles, the homing head of the missile is from 2024, and its export engine is from 1990! Su-27SK weakened manual Export not oroginal and better Su-27S manual! MiG-29 9-29B Export manual (weakened export) not original and better Soviet MiG-29 9-12 or 9-13 or 9-13S product!

This is the problem, that's why the range of the missiles is reduced!

Edited June 10, 2024 by Irisz

[Ramius007]

No matter what you do with current ingame FC3 weapons, it doesnt turn blue vs red scenario in balanced experiance past 1990 era, better missiles alone dont help much with worse situational awerness and worse radar, Flankers in DCS have sirious transonic drag issues that look like a bug as well. What we really need is modern FF or medium fidelity Russian or Chinese hi performance jet, that is more advanced than announced by ED 9.12 Fulcrum. 1992+ semi realistic scenarios on Caucasus or Kola maps are dead horse currently without giving some F-teens to red team, for me personally it's a big turn of alone, but it's getting of topic

Edited June 10, 2024 by Ramius007