aim9 continues growling with Jettison Select switch moved out of "Off"

[Sarowa]

On 8/16/2023 at 2:09 PM, Flappie said:

Fixed with today's OB update.

It looks like this now gives the pilot a good indication of when they cannot fire an aim9 due to switch configuration, with one exception:
At the moment, having the Select Jettison switch in Select Position or All Pylons inhibits firing the aim9. However, the aim9 growls in all Select Jettison switch positions.

Is this Select Jettison switch supposed to inhibit firing the aim9 in Select Position or All Pylons? If so, is the aim9 supposed to continue growling?

Edited August 17, 2023 by Sarowa

[Flappie]

Sorry, I'm away from my PC right now. I'll check this when I get back from vacation.

In the meantime, could you please attach a short track showing what you describe?

[Flappie]

Excerpt from the real manual. Does it help?

EDIT: Source, https://www.avialogs.com/reader.php?jid=4946#p=138 (1977)

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Flappie

[Sarowa]

4 hours ago, Flappie said:

Excerpt from the real manual. Does it help?

 

 

No, this is a different switch. I'm talking about the Jettison Select switch. Please see the attached track as requested:

In the track, you can see the wingtip Armament Position Selector Switches are active (up).

When I put the Select Jettison switch into Select Position (up), the aim9 continues to growl. When I hold the Weapon Release button, the aim9 does not fire. Likewise with the Select Jettison switch in All Pylons (down).

When I put the Select Jettison switch into Off (center) and hold the Weapon Release button, the aim9 fires.

Is it expected for the aim9 to continue growling when the Select Jettison switch is up or down (not centered)?

Is it expected for the aim9 to be unable to fire when the Select Jettison switch is up or down (not centered)?

(Courtesy of Chuck's Guide)

 

f5-jettison-switch-missile-fire-test.trk

Edited August 17, 2023 by Sarowa

[nairb121]

From the same table in the manual - the select jettison switch activates the jettison circuits and inhibits normal release. It doesn't mention whether it removes normal power to the station, but in the case of AIM-9 I would expect not, since they're "jettisoned" by launching them.

Edited August 17, 2023 by nairb121

[Dudikoff]

1 hour ago, Sarowa said:

Is it expected for the aim9 to continue growling when the Select Jettison switch is up or down (not centered)?

I would expect so as I don't think the wingtip pylons are jettisonable so I'd presume the select jettison switch doesn't influence them as they have no jettison electrical circuits.

[Sarowa]

1 hour ago, nairb121 said:

From the same table in the manual - the select jettison switch activates the jettison circuits and inhibits normal release. It doesn't mention whether it removes normal power to the station, but in the case of AIM-9 I would expect not, since they're "jettisoned" by launching them.

This seems to confirm the Select Jettison switch in Select Position or All Pylons is intended to inhibit the Weapon Release button for all weapons. Thanks!

Maybe someone at ED knows for certain whether it should also silence the growl?

42 minutes ago, Dudikoff said:

I would expect so as I don't think the wingtip pylons are jettisonable so I'd presume the select jettison switch doesn't influence them as they have no jettison electrical circuits.

Like nairb121 mentions, you can jettison aim9s, but the way the f5 does this is by launching them, and only with the Select Jettison switch in Select Position. You cannot jettison aim9s with this switch in the All Pylons position.

To jettison the aim9:

1. Activate one/both wingtip Armament Position Selector switches (up)
2. Move the Select Jettison switch to Select Position (up)
3. Hold the red Jettison Push Button
4. If both wingtip Armament Position Selector switches are active, both aim9s launch at the same time

Edited August 17, 2023 by Sarowa

[Flappie]

Ok. Then if it's not a sound bug, we'll split this thread. Thank you.

[BIGNEWY]

posts split. 

A reminder please do not post from real world manuals unless it is public and unclassified, then please ensure it has the source linked.

in this case the manual inserts are from a 1977 manual and are ok. 

thank you

[nairb121]

Note that the 1977 manual is for the earlier F-5E and not the F-5E-3 variant we have - the 1984 F-5E/F manual (https://docdro.id/51orrvC) incorporates all E/F variants up to E-3 and F-2. In this case it doesn't matter much (there is a slight difference in the armament panel, but not relevant to selective jettison) but there are some changes that are significant.

[Sarowa]

2 hours ago, Flappie said:

Ok. Then if it's not a sound bug, we'll split this thread. Thank you.

Actually the sound is the last unresolved part.

Can you please confirm, is it expected for the aim9 to continue growling when the Select Jettison switch is up or down (not centered), as I showed in my track?

[Schmidtfire]

No growl unless the armament position switch is up and the electrical circuit is activated. 
THANKS for that fix!!! 

[nairb121]

Reading the -34 (https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/1946809/), I'm definitely leaning towards the growl being incorrect when the select jettison switch is moved out of OFF. It specifies that the AIM-9, when jettisoned, is launched unguided - meaning the seeker should be inactive.

Additionally, it notes the select jettison switch as disabling normal release and arming circuits - so it should be expected that the seeker and fuze are unpowered when the switch is moved out of the OFF position.

The section on the wingtip launch rails indicates that there are 3 connection points to the missile, one for the guidance/control section, one for the fuze, and one for the motor. It seems likely that when jettison is selected, the guidance and fuze sections are unpowered and only the motor igniter is powered.

[Sarowa]

On 8/17/2023 at 1:21 PM, Flappie said:

Ok. Then if it's not a sound bug, we'll split this thread. Thank you.

nairb121's post above seems to indicate the current DCS F-5's SELECT JETTISON switch behavior is erroneous. It seems the aim9 growl should be silenced when the SELECT JETTISON switch is out of the OFF position.

In other words, it seems the aim9 should growl ONLY if ALL the following conditions are met:

• There is an aim9 on the wingtip
• The relevant wingtip Armament Position Selector Switch is Up/active
• The GUNS MSL & CAMR switch is Up/active
• The EXTERNAL STORES switch is SAFE
• The SELECT JETTISON switch is OFF <--- ***key point of discussion here***

Do you agree? If so, are there plans fix this?

 

It's probably no coincidence these are (mostly?*) the same conditions required to fire an aim9 using the Weapon Release button on the flight stick.

*I think actually firing also requires the landing gear to be up?

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sarowa

[Flappie]

As indicated in my signature, I'm away from my PC. I need to check all this when I get back home.

It's well placed in my to-do list, don't worry. And your latest post will save me a lot of time, thank you for it.

[nairb121]

I read deeper into the -34 and it's become clear that the left sidewinder doesn't follow the weapon selection rules as expected. It actually appears to be correct for it to produce a growl when deselected or when the External Stores selector is out of SAFE - if this is the case, I believe it's likely it will also ignore the jettison switch position. Has this particular issue been tested to determine if the left and right missiles behave differently?

(I hope whoever fixed the "bug" didn't delete the old code...)

[Flappie]

Thanks. Your point looks correct to me.

I sum it up: the fix would be to get back the previous behaviour (growl is heard when left missile is present even when unselected), and to be able to modify the growl volume even when the left missile is present and unselected.

Does everybody agree?

 

@nairb121  Of course, devs do proper commits, which means these can be identified, modified or reverted.

[Sarowa]

13 hours ago, Flappie said:

Thanks. Your point looks correct to me.

I sum it up: the fix would be to get back the previous behaviour (growl is heard when left missile is present even when unselected), and to be able to modify the growl volume even when the left missile is present and unselected.

Does everybody agree?

Yes, given that you're trying to simulate the F-5 as accurately as possible and this sounds like the most accurate behavior, it makes sense to implement.

To clarify, it sounds like the new growl conditions are:

• There is an aim9 on the wingtip
• The GUNS MSL & CAMR switch is Up/active
• The EXTERNAL STORES switch is SAFE
• The SELECT JETTISON switch is OFF

Is this correct? Should the volume control be able to silence the growl?

 

My personal preference is for the aim9 to only growl when it's possible for the aim9 to launch and track, but it seems this is at odds with accurate F-5 modeling.

[nairb121]

14 hours ago, Flappie said:

I sum it up: the fix would be to get back the previous behaviour (growl is heard when left missile is present even when unselected), and to be able to modify the growl volume even when the left missile is present and unselected.

Does everybody agree?

Yes, I agree. Based on what I've read, I believe correct behavior should be:

• Guns, Missile and Camera Switch set to OFF or CAMR ONLY - No growl under any circumstances².
• Guns, Missile and Camera Switch set to GUNS MSL & CAMR: 
  • SELECT JETTISON Switch set to OFF:
    • EXTERNAL STORES Selector set to SAFE:
      • Left AIM-9 growls if present, regardless of selection³, but can only be fired if selected⁴.
      • Right AIM-9 will only growl, and can only be fired, if selected⁴.
    • EXTERNAL STORES Selector set to BOMB, RIPL, or RKT/DISP:
      • Left AIM-9 growls if present, regardless of selection³, but cannot be fired unless DM/DG mode is activated⁵ and the station is selected⁴.
      • Right AIM-9 will only growl, and can only be fired, if DM/DG mode is activated⁵ and the station is selected⁴.
  • SELECT JETTISON Switch set to SELECT POSITION or ALL PYLONS:
    • EXTERNAL STORES Selector set to SAFE, BOMB, RIPL, or RKT/DISP:
      • Left AIM-9 growls if present, regardless of selection (conjecture based on the behavior above) but cannot be fired under any circumstances⁶.
      • Right AIM-9 does not growl (conjecture based on the behavior above) and cannot be fired under any circumstances⁶.

The MISSILE VOLUME Knob should be effective at any time the growl is audible, including the unselected left missile¹. The source states that "The audio tone cannot be manually turned off."

¹T.O. 1F-5E-34-1-1, Figure 1-28, #1
²T.O. 1F-5E-34-1-1, Figure 1-28, #4
³T.O. 1F-5E-34-1-1, Figure 1-28, #5
⁴T.O. 1F-5E-34-1-1, Figure 1-28, #6
⁵T.O. 1F-5E-34-1-1, Figure 1-28, #9
⁶T.O. 1F-5E-34-1-1, Figure 1-29, #3

[dolfo]

On 8/24/2023 at 7:40 AM, Flappie said:

Thanks. Your point looks correct to me.

I sum it up: the fix would be to get back the previous behaviour (growl is heard when left missile is present even when unselected), and to be able to modify the growl volume even when the left missile is present and unselected.

Does everybody agree?

 

@nairb121  Of course, devs do proper commits, which means these can be identified, modified or reverted.

Hell no.

 

 

[nairb121]

8 hours ago, dolfo said:

On 8/23/2023 at 6:40 PM, Flappie said:

Thanks. Your point looks correct to me.

I sum it up: the fix would be to get back the previous behaviour (growl is heard when left missile is present even when unselected), and to be able to modify the growl volume even when the left missile is present and unselected.

Does everybody agree?

 

@nairb121  Of course, devs do proper commits, which means these can be identified, modified or reverted.

Expand  

Hell no.

Thanks for pointing this out, this suggests my interpretation above is incorrect or at least inaccurate. I've not been able to find a publicly accessible F-5E NATOPS, is there a source where we can find it?

[dolfo]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:19 PM, nairb121 said:

Thanks for pointing this out, this suggests my interpretation above is incorrect or at least inaccurate. I've not been able to find a publicly accessible F-5E NATOPS, is there a source where we can find it?

Without intention to further digress from the topic (I have no opinion on the Jettison Select), there was a post made here in this forum sharing all sort of F5 books just before the module was released. Thinking it was in 2016 or so. Not sure if the post or its links are still up.