resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Well, there are spotting dots in 2D, but not in VR, so clearly not everyone agrees that they are unnecessary in 2D.

I have some screenshots earlier here with the dots “off” ie the 2.8 version where they are effectively invisible in 4K. What I see essentially matches the real world values. I’m not sure they are necessary at all. 
This is definitely awful, I think it’s the old 2.9 version. I don’t care if these disappear or not, they shouldn’t be there at all  

 

[PawlaczGMD]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I have some screenshots earlier here with the dots “off” ie the 2.8 version where they are effectively invisible in 4K. What I see essentially matches the real world values. I’m not sure they are necessary at all. 
This is definitely awful, I think it’s the old 2.9 version. I don’t care if these disappear or not, they shouldn’t be there at all  

 

I've seen your ss, and I have to reiterate, there is no point comparing VR to flat. Trust me, it looks completely different, and a/c are way less visible than in your ss. No point in arguing unless you play DCS in Pimax Crystal.

[Panny]

I applaud that ED is at least working on this, and there are legitimate debates between realism and gameplay.

I have noticed a drop on CW era PvP servers because of spotting changes. I know it's part of tactics etc. to not be observed; but for many it isn't fun when you can't spot anything; you know there's a bad guy trying to get you, and if you do get tally the moment you look away it's not guarantee you'll reacquire. 

Ultimately I view spotting dots as a mechanism to fill in the gaps as to what the game engine can't do. Current rendering doesn't account for things like the glint or reflection of an aircraft, for example, or other subtle hints that help with spotting. Anti-aliasing options and sharpening do affect your spotting experience (MSAA tends to be the best. In VR the other options are hopeless). 

It's unfortunate because you can get good spotting but that involves rolling down your resolution(I'm a Crystal user). At 200% super sample in the foveated area dots are nigh impossible to spot and you're jsut relying on the game's default rendering(which can be tricky with phasing LODs coming in and out in the 2-5nm band). In comparison, I ramp down the resolution to 70% and spotting becomes pretty easy - but completely renders the point of my getting this headset to be pointless lol.

There's something about the ppd of the Reverb G2 that seems to be a pretty good sweetspot from what I've seen, hence I tuned my resolution to be closer to that. Hoepfully future patches resolve this as I'd very much enjoy the visual fidelity of the Crystal alongside the dot spotting capability of the G2

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Panny said:

It's unfortunate because you can get good spotting but that involves rolling down your resolution

And this is why dots can probably never be a good solution. Low resolutions make bigger dots. I thought v2.9 was supposed to mitigate this but that’s maybe not possible. Punishing higher resolutions is backwards thinking. 

Edited September 27, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Panny]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And this is why dots can probably never be a good solution. Low resolutions make bigger dots. I thought v2.9 was supposed to mitigate this but that’s maybe not possible. 

Not in the long term, no. I think it's just a stand in for other deficiencies in the meantime 

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Panny said:

Not in the long term, no. I think it's just a stand in for other deficiencies in the meantime 

How can dots ever be fair across resolutions? And the trouble with a “stand in” is that once introduced you’ll never be able to get rid of it even if the game had fantastic rendering otherwise. People would just howl if the spotting was akin to the real world because they’ve become accustomed to labels as such. The dot is just a label after all. 
PS I tried lowering my resolution and honestly couldn’t see much difference between the dots at 1080p vs 4K, there are screenshots a few pages back 

Edited September 27, 2024 by SharpeXB

[draconus]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How can dots ever be fair across resolutions?

They can't, but forget dots. We have pixels and they already are of different sizes on different displays. Devs can only try to limit unrealistic ranges to be rendered in game (takes care of zoom in cheat for everyone) and add effects like sun glints to the far lods of aircraft - no dots are really needed - let rendering take care of displaying models down to 1 pixel size, which then can fade out and have other color than black. If it's properly implemented higher resolution displays should actually get you better spotting and longer ranges of shape recognition.

[SharpeXB]

Ground target dots look ridiculous too and they are quite visible without such enhancement.

[=475FG= Dawger]

It would be nice to have a VR only server side setting so we can stop trying to invent one impossible solution and just let the flat earthers play with themselves.

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

It would be nice to have a VR only server side setting so we can stop trying to invent one impossible solution and just let the flat earthers play with themselves.

There aren’t enough players online for that sort of thing to be feasible. You’d have a game with 2 people in it

[Pillowcat]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

How can dots ever be fair across resolutions?

Well..

[SharpeXB]

44 minutes ago, Pillowcat said:

Well..

Those are visible due to the contrast which is true for the aircraft models as well. I can easily make out very distant aircraft models or even missiles against dark terrain or the sea. And I’m pretty sure the stars appear “smaller” in 4K

I imagine looking at my own screenshot above the game is simply putting 4 pixels as a dot in 2160p instead of the 1 pixel that it does for 1080p. The trouble is that even a single pixel for a distant aircraft or vehicle can be too large and there’s only so much finesse possible over all these different resolutions. 
Dots also can’t convey color or target aspect, they’re very limited as a solution. Plus they have this inherent problem that if they’re larger than the model they’re unrealistic and if they’re smaller there’s no point in using them.

My vote is just turn on dot labels if you need help and if after 7-8 years of screwing around with these spotting dots hasn’t resulted in anything good, it’s time to get rid of them altogether. 

Edited September 27, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Bazz_Mulder]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

There aren’t enough players online for that sort of thing to be feasible. You’d have a game with 2 people in it

And how would you know that if you play only in 2D? You are seemingly very confident on a subject you have absolutely no idea about. 

[SharpeXB]

26 minutes ago, Bazz_Mulder said:

And how would you know that if you play only in 2D? You are seemingly very confident on a subject you have absolutely no idea about. 

You can see the numbers of people online in this game. Both 2D and VR together aren’t very many at all. Not enough to split them up. The only real flight sim survey I’ve seen is Navigraph, that shows about 16% using VR. That seems about right. No matter what the percentage is again the player base isn’t large enough for such a divide. 

Edited September 27, 2024 by SharpeXB

[=475FG= Dawger]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You can see the numbers of people online in this game. Both 2D and VR together aren’t very many at all. Not enough to split them up. The only real flight sim survey I’ve seen is Navigraph, that shows about 16% using VR. That seems about right. No matter what the percentage is again the player base isn’t large enough for such a divide. 

 

We divide DCS players by every other available method. I don't see how this is any different. It has the added benefit of being able to have two completely different spotting implementations. In addition, folks who get all wrapped around the axle regarding some unfair advantage VR players are privileged to can be easily excluded from being exposed to said VR privilege.

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

We divide DCS players by every other available method. I don't see how this is any different.

Yes there are already setting available for servers / missions but if you look at the reality there aren’t many options. Select any era etc and you’ll find maybe one server that’s actually attended. And that is most likely going to run the popular array of setting you typically see in CFS multiplayer. Icons off, “full real” style. So that’s your choice. I don’t think you’d find many of the admins willing to run two servers just to cater to VR or 2D. And since VR is probably the minority you’d find such a server underpopulated. That’s my guess. An already thinly populated game doesn’t need even more settings to divide it up.

24 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

folks who get all wrapped around the axle regarding some unfair advantage VR players are privileged to

Who said it’s an advantage?

Edited September 27, 2024 by SharpeXB

[=475FG= Dawger]

40 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yes there are already setting available for servers / missions but if you look at the reality there aren’t many options. Select any era etc and you’ll find maybe one server that’s actually attended. And that is most likely going to run the popular array of setting you typically see in CFS multiplayer. Icons off, “full real” style. So that’s your choice. I don’t think you’d find many of the admins willing to run two servers just to cater to VR or 2D. And since VR is probably the minority you’d find such a server underpopulated. That’s my guess. An already thinly populated game doesn’t need even more settings to divide it up.

Who said it’s an advantage?

 

Dividing the population would have had a lot less of an effect than nuking the spotting dots. There is zero interest in DCS from all of the VR non-BVR fixed wing players I know. And I suspect VR is a much larger percentage of MP players than 16%. 

[SharpeXB]

26 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Dividing the population would have had a lot less of an effect than nuking the spotting dots. There is zero interest in DCS from all of the VR non-BVR fixed wing players I know. And I suspect VR is a much larger percentage of MP players than 16%. 

A good solution should work for everyone, splitting up the community isn’t a great idea. 

[Zakson85]

What is your opinion on removing dots from dcs.

In my opinion, for purists, realism are a gigantic improvement. For irritated players whose dots disappear, it is also a plus because there will be nothing to be irritated about. There is also probably the least amount of work for the simulator's creators. We remove a product feature and everyone smiles. This opinion is not some troll. What would DCS lose if it didn't have this bad dot system?

[virgo47]

7 hours ago, Zakson85 said:

What is your opinion on removing dots from dcs.

In my opinion, for purists, realism are a gigantic improvement. For irritated players whose dots disappear, it is also a plus because there will be nothing to be irritated about. There is also probably the least amount of work for the simulator's creators. We remove a product feature and everyone smiles. This opinion is not some troll. What would DCS lose if it didn't have this bad dot system?

I believe that realism and monitor (or VR displays, or whatever) don't work together well if you don't do something special about the visibility. People could see things further and smaller than what current monitors can provide, and some kind of smudge or something should be visible if it could have been visible in real, even if the 3D engine would not be able to provide it. Current dots are terrible because I see things better far off than when they get closer and the dot disappears.

But something should be there, otherwise we would not see things that can be seen in real. It will never be 100% realistic anyway, if nothing else simply because of FOV vs monitor and many other reasons. And it will never work the same (and as well) for all users with various devices.

But current solution doesn't seem to cover the mid-range very well and overblows the far end. And, what's even worse, does not seem to work in a comparable fashion across various devices - too far from it. This makes the whole discussion even harder.

[SharpeXB]

41 minutes ago, virgo47 said:

People could see things further and smaller than what current monitors can provide, and some kind of smudge or something should be visible if it could have been visible in real, even if the 3D engine would not be able to provide it.

The trouble is a dot can make something easily visible in the game that would be barely visible IRL. And DCS visibility without dots already equates quite well to the real world from what I see. 

41 minutes ago, virgo47 said:

Current dots are terrible because I see things better far off than when they get closer and the dot disappears.

Any dot solution will have this problem because at some range they will stop showing. Dots have this fundamental problem; if the dot is bigger than the aircraft/vehicle it will look unrealistic and be seen to vanish, if the dot is smaller there’s no purpose to using it.

Spotting dots are a poor solution and should be abandoned IMO

[HansPeter1981]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

...The trouble is a dot can make something easily visible in the game that would be barely visible IRL...

Totally agree. IRlL you most of the time see nothing unless you know exactly where you need to look and colour, sunlight, background aspect and size work all in your favour... otherwise it has to be within 1 or 2 miles often less to be able to spot it.

Super dots and dramatic zoom ranges turn this wonderful simulation into a counterstrike knock off...

[SharpeXB]

What makes the spotting dots issue so hard to resolve is that unlike every other aspect of the sim this feature isn’t based upon realism. It’s just trying to market the game to players based upon their impressions formed by other games. There’s not a logical solution going that route. That’s why this has been going in circles for 7-8 years with no solution. Simply turning to reality for an answer here will just yield a result some players aren't willing to accept. 

Edited September 28, 2024 by SharpeXB

[=475FG= Dawger]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The trouble is a dot can make something easily visible in the game that would be barely visible IRL. And DCS visibility without dots already equates quite well to the real world from what I see. 

Any dot solution will have this problem because at some range they will stop showing. Dots have this fundamental problem; if the dot is bigger than the aircraft/vehicle it will look unrealistic and be seen to vanish, if the dot is smaller there’s no purpose to using it.

Spotting dots are a poor solution and should be abandoned IMO

You keep arguing for separate solutions for flat and VR while insisting that isn't the solution. 

[SharpeXB]

32 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

You keep arguing for separate solutions for flat and VR while insisting that isn't the solution. 

Dots have the same inherent problems when applied to either VR or 2D.

In addition it seems VR has problems with how it renders things.  That’s perhaps another issue entirely. 

Edited September 28, 2024 by SharpeXB