resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[SharpeXB]

24 minutes ago, KoN said:

We have all been telling you sharp for months it's different in VR.

I don’t think this can ever be resolved for VR because aparently it’s affected by the pixel density setting and not just the native resolution of the HMD. So there are infinite variables to account for and trying to tailor this to each headset is futile. People with the same headsets either can’t see the dots or claim they’re too large. At least monitor users can’t just turn these off but then you’ll be at a disadvantage online. The whole idea is a gigantic mess and should just be scrapped IMO. 

[Tippis]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t think this can ever be resolved for VR because aparently it’s affected by the pixel density setting and not just the native resolution of the HMD.

…which means it's inherently possible to resolve. It's no different from how every other display made after, oh, 1985 or so, has worked.

VR isn't magic, no matter how little you care to know about it.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Tippis

[KoN]

On 11/12/2024 at 5:26 PM, SharpeXB said:

I don’t think this can ever be resolved for VR because aparently it’s affected by the pixel density setting and not just the native resolution of the HMD. So there are infinite variables to account for and trying to tailor this to each headset is futile. People with the same headsets either can’t see the dots or claim they’re too large. At least monitor users can’t just turn these off but then you’ll be at a disadvantage online. The whole idea is a gigantic mess and should just be scrapped IMO. 

I agree it's a complete mess . It's an old game engine trying to look good , but it's just too old to keep up with other flight sims .

Just look at MSFS 2024 and them graphics and apparently you won't even need to upgrade your system. According to YouTube. 

DCS is a spaghetti of code .

Just look how long it takes to get a module out of beta . How many years is F16 going still waiting for that to drop down to $30, in the sales. 

Edited November 13, 2024 by KoN

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, KoN said:

I agree it's a complete mess . It's an old game engine trying to look good , but it's just too old to keep up with other flight sims .

Just look at MSFS 2024 and them graphics and apparently you won't even need to upgrade your system. According to YouTube. 

DCS is a spaghetti of code .

Just look how long it takes to get a module out of beta . How many years is F16 going still waiting for that to drop down to $30, in the sales. 

 

This issue has nothing to do with “spaghetti code” or what any other games do. 

[Tippis]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

This issue has nothing to do with “spaghetti code” or what any other games do. 

…aside from how it's actually pretty much a solved problem where DCS is lagging behind other games and one of the main obstacles in making the game better is that it rests on a positively antiquated code base with some pretty bad design decisions built into its foundation.

[Qcumber]

On 11/12/2024 at 5:34 PM, Tippis said:

…which means it's inherently possible to resolve. It's no different from how every other display made after, oh, 1985 or so, has worked.

VR isn't magic, no matter how little you care to know about it.

 

Not quite the same. With most VR headsets the best quality is with supersampling so someone running a Q3 at 2000 pixels would see bigger dots than someone running at 3000 or 4000. This is where the issue is and why it is so difficult for ED to solve. 

[SharpeXB]

45 minutes ago, Qcumber said:

Not quite the same. With most VR headsets the best quality is with supersampling so someone running a Q3 at 2000 pixels would see bigger dots than someone running at 3000 or 4000. This is where the issue is and why it is so difficult for ED to solve. 

I thought this new solution was supposed to be resolution agnostic. As such I suppose it would indeed have to use the selected resolution (ie supersampling) and not the native res on either an HMD or screen. So in simplistic terms if you select 1080x1920 in the game you get a 1 pixel dot and of you select 3840x2160 you get a 4 pixel dot (never mind that both those examples are too large) If it’s possible to change the dot sizes by simply selecting different resolutions then the exploit is open to just lower resolution and see bigger dots. I thought the whole idea was to get rid of that since this was the problem with v2.8. The problem with this too is I think such resolutions can be set outside the game and so DCS isn’t going to know how to scale the dots. And it’s still going to be possible to hack or exploit the system. 

Edited November 14, 2024 by SharpeXB

[draconus]

4 hours ago, Qcumber said:

someone running a Q3 at 2000 pixels would see bigger dots than someone running at 3000 or 4000

Currently it's the other way around - lower higher res - bigger dot.

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

you select 3840x2160 you get a 4 pixel dot

It should never be more than 1 pixel if at all. If the model can be rendered when it's 1 pixel size or more then no dot is needed.

Edited November 14, 2024 by draconus

[Qcumber]

15 minutes ago, draconus said:

Currently it's the other way around - lower res - bigger dot

That's what I said. 2000 pixels has bigger spotting dots. 4000 pixels has smaller spotting dots. In the same headset. 

[SharpeXB]

26 minutes ago, draconus said:

It should never be more than 1 pixel if at all. If the model can be rendered when it's 1 pixel size or more then no dot is needed.

If the game is trying to keep the dots the same size independent of resolution then the 4K dot would need to be 4x the pixels of the 1080p dot. Now I don’t think the whole idea makes sense at all, just pointing out what it would need to do if that’s the goal. Yes, the model will be visible and smaller than the dot and a 1 pixel 1080p dot is gigantic so it obscures the 3D model. And the system shouldn’t be exploitable by lowering the resolution. Which it appears to be now. I think v2.8 used a single pixel in 4K which was effectively invisible. Selecting Spotting Dots Off (which enables v2.8) basically removes the dots in 4K. The more you try to analyze this the more you realize how little sense it makes. 

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Qcumber said:

That's what I said. 2000 pixels has bigger spotting dots. 4000 pixels has smaller spotting dots. In the same headset. 

Oh, sorry, I meant that lower res results in smaller dots atm. I have to keep PD under 1.4 otherwise I see black squares.

[Qcumber]

20 minutes ago, draconus said:

Oh, sorry, I meant that lower res results in smaller dots atm. I have to keep PD under 1.4 otherwise I see black squares.

OK. That's not what I am seeing with Quest Pro. I still have my Rift s so I might try comparing the two at different resolutions over the weekend. 

[SWAR1]

On 11/7/2024 at 1:25 AM, PawlaczGMD said:

Same feedback from me on the Crystal. I'll live for now, but would like to see headset-specific settings or some customization soon.

100 percent what needs to be done

 

[Tippis]

On 11/14/2024 at 3:45 PM, Qcumber said:

Not quite the same. With most VR headsets the best quality is with supersampling so someone running a Q3 at 2000 pixels would see bigger dots than someone running at 3000 or 4000. This is where the issue is and why it is so difficult for ED to solve. 

The same is true for pancake mode. It's still a matter of rendering resolution vs display resolution vs display size (or more accurately, expected frustrum coverage). A display is a display is a display — the difference VR makes is that expected coverage, but it is ultimately no different than what you have to do to get the dot suitably (and equitably) sized for regular monitors.

Edited November 15, 2024 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

I’m curious what “headset specific” settings means since all HMDs can have different resolutions based on the pixel density setting. And I believe is usually set outside DCS so how would the game know how to adjust this?

[Tippis]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

I’m curious what “headset specific” settings means since all HMDs can have different resolutions based on the pixel density setting. And I believe is usually set outside DCS so how would the game know how to adjust this?

The same way it would any other display: by asking. The game knows what resolution it renders to.

Again, they're not magic.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

HMDs can have different resolutions

No, it's the same LCD tech as in monitors. You have only one native resolution. The rest is just virtual resolution - scaling.

Edited November 15, 2024 by draconus

[SharpeXB]

21 minutes ago, draconus said:

No, it's the same LCD tech as in monitors. You have only one native resolution. The rest is just virtual resolution - scaliing.

But VR users often use supersampling, not the native setting. Monitor users tend not to although that’s possible as well. If the dots are only sized for the native resolution that’s problematic. It also leaves the possibility of exploiting the system by just lowering the input resolution. The accounts from VR users seem to indicate that changing pixel density settings affects the dot sizes. If this system was done correctly I don’t think that should happen. 
Making a “per HMD” configuration makes as little sense as trying to create a “per monitor” one. What’s needed is a “per resolution” system. Honestly I don’t think the whole idea makes any sense but it’s also not being implemented well either. 

Edited November 15, 2024 by SharpeXB

[draconus]

16 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If this system was done correctly...

...we wouldn't even know there is one.

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, draconus said:

...we wouldn't even know there is one.

I don’t think that will be achieved… if the dots were so small you can’t notice them then what’s the point? If the dot is bigger than the aircraft model it will be too big and hide it. If the dot is smaller than the aircraft model there’s no point in using it. See there’s no way to win except get rid of the idea altogether. 

Edited November 15, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t think that will be achieved.

It can. We know this because it has been.

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

if the dots were so small you can’t notice them then what’s the point?

You would notice them. It's the system that wouldn't be noticeable — the contacts would. That's the whole point of the system.

The rest is just you not bothering to understand what dots do and why they exist. There is a point to having them. You just refuse to understand it because you want to get your exploit back and a functioning system won't give you that. It's about time you give up.

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

See there’s no way to win except get rid of the idea altogether. 

That's the only way you win and to get your exploit back. But that's not the end goal. The goals is for you to lose and for the game and all its other players to win. That's why it is the worst idea imaginable to get rid of the system.

Edited November 15, 2024 by Tippis

[Bounti30]

The next update seems to be here soon and I have no illusions.
Mid-range systems will be out of the game unless you lower the settings once more.
I don't think it's possible to find an adjustment to spotting dots for all systems and VR headsets.
ED doesn't seem to want us to be able to deactivate them. 
some will be privileged ? Pimax ?
For me each update is a disappointment.

will it be the same ?

[BIGNEWY]

11 minutes ago, Bounti30 said:

The next update seems to be here soon and I have no illusions.
Mid-range systems will be out of the game unless you lower the settings once more.
I don't think it's possible to find an adjustment to spotting dots for all systems and VR headsets.
ED doesn't seem to want us to be able to deactivate them. 
some will be privileged ? Pimax ?
For me each update is a disappointment.

will it be the same ?

I'm sorry but you are making to many assumptions. Please continue to be patient, the team are working on a better solution but it may not match the time line you expect. 

thank you 

[Bounti30]

8 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

I'm sorry but you are making to many assumptions. Please continue to be patient, the team are working on a better solution but it may not match the time line you expect. 

thank you 

Bignewy I see that you react to my post.
As you have understood, for me the big downside of DCS is precisely the big black boxes in VR.
Currently I no longer update DCS and use an earlier version.
I will be delighted to be able to give a constructive opinion on DCS updates but currently
with the OFF option which does not work this is not the case.
I am not against the new spotting dots, on the contrary.
But imagine, I update DCS and the system does not work yet, no worries, I deactivate it and continue to enjoy DCS.
The day it works ''Wow'' I keep it.
it seems so simple to understand.

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, Bounti30 said:

Bignewy I see that you react to my post.
As you have understood, for me the big downside of DCS is precisely the big black boxes in VR.
Currently I no longer update DCS and use an earlier version.
I will be delighted to be able to give a constructive opinion on DCS updates but currently
with the OFF option which does not work this is not the case.
I am not against the new spotting dots, on the contrary.
But imagine, I update DCS and the system does not work yet, no worries, I deactivate it and continue to enjoy DCS.
The day it works ''Wow'' I keep it.
it seems so simple to understand.

I get you want it to work for you and your preferences, what you have to understand is it isn't just about how you want it, others have different expectations or preferences, there are also many devices, settings and configurations to consider that all affect how the dots look and it is making it more difficult than it really needed to be. But as mentioned the team are working on a way to try and make the majority of people happy, we just need to continue to be patient. 

thanks