resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[SharpeXB]

What makes the spotting dots issue so hard to resolve is that unlike every other aspect of the sim this feature isn’t based upon realism. It’s just trying to market the game to players based upon their impressions formed by other games. There’s not a logical solution going that route. That’s why this has been going in circles for 7-8 years with no solution. Simply turning to reality for an answer here will just yield a result some players aren't willing to accept. 

Edited September 28, 2024 by SharpeXB

[=475FG= Dawger]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The trouble is a dot can make something easily visible in the game that would be barely visible IRL. And DCS visibility without dots already equates quite well to the real world from what I see. 

Any dot solution will have this problem because at some range they will stop showing. Dots have this fundamental problem; if the dot is bigger than the aircraft/vehicle it will look unrealistic and be seen to vanish, if the dot is smaller there’s no purpose to using it.

Spotting dots are a poor solution and should be abandoned IMO

You keep arguing for separate solutions for flat and VR while insisting that isn't the solution. 

[SharpeXB]

32 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

You keep arguing for separate solutions for flat and VR while insisting that isn't the solution. 

Dots have the same inherent problems when applied to either VR or 2D.

In addition it seems VR has problems with how it renders things.  That’s perhaps another issue entirely. 

Edited September 28, 2024 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

DCS doesn’t have a spotting problem. The problem is that other games draw aircraft 2-3 times the size they should be. And DCS gets compared to that. What other games do isn’t relevant here. 

[BeerNfrites]

Does this idea of basing everything in reality extend to zoom and being able to swivel your head 180°?

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, BeerNfrites said:

Does this idea of basing everything in reality extend to zoom and being able to swivel your head 180°?

Zoom view is actually there to replicate the reality of 20/20 eyesight. And a fighter pilot can actually turn to see their 6:00 IRL as well, not sure why you would think they can’t. 

Edited September 28, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Magic Zach]

Hello, I'm pretty late (34 pages late) to this convo, but why hasn't ED tried scaling LODs instead of the simple black 2D pixel method DCS does now?  There's other games that already do this, and it works.  You also still get to see the color of the plane/vehicle you're looking at (since the pixel dot just makes everything black), and you also get profile detail (because the model shape is better than a square pixel).  Plus you can see the contact size change depending if the plane is flying toward/away from you, or perpendicular, or at its largest, perpendicular and in a bank, making the contact very easy to see.  Versus the 2 dimensional pixel ED seems so adamant to use.

Use size scaling LODs!

Edited September 28, 2024 by Magic Zach

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Magic Zach said:

There's other games that already do this, and it works.

I think the other game where this “works” does a very subtle scaling at large distances so the effect isn’t so egregious. There’s another game that takes this to an extreme and applies a scaling factor of something like 2x at 3 miles. The former might work but the latter would look a bit ridiculous. The game with egregious scaling is probably why so many DCS players have trouble spotting as they’ve become accustomed to other aircraft being drawn so large. 

[Zakson85]

43 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

DCS doesn’t have a spotting problem.

Well, not bad. Does anyone pay you for posts like this?
I've been following your comments for some time and I feel like we're playing a completely different game.
 

 

23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Zoom view is actually there to replicate the reality

How many pilots do you think flew with binoculars during the Cold War?

There are probably two people in this thread who are happy with the current realistic situation.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Here’s 78 pages on why scaling is necessary in simulation to replicate the same visual cues pilots rely on in BFM. 

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA414893
 

But we can’t have that or dots or anything that might benefit anyone with any actual BFM skill. 
 

All kills must be from an unseen adversary because “realism”. 

[Pillowcat]

11 minutes ago, Magic Zach said:

but why hasn't ED tried scaling LODs

Because they trying to make this more like simulator than a quake probably. Making better cons dots/blips/whatever is right way, scaling is screwing a lot of real life useful and fun practices.

10 minutes ago, Zakson85 said:

How many pilots do you think flew with binoculars during the Cold War?

A-10A pilots at least, as I heard

[Parabe11um]

13 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Here’s 78 pages on why scaling is necessary in simulation to replicate the same visual cues pilots rely on in BFM. 

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA414893
 

But we can’t have that or dots or anything that might benefit anyone with any actual BFM skill. 
 

All kills must be from an unseen adversary because “realism”. 

Smart scaling has advanced a lot too over the years to resolve some of the original approach issues.

And as that paper points out aiming for 1:1 spotting in a game or sim is practically impossible given the many hardware and software limitations inherent to games/simulations.

The goal with any sim or modeling is rarely 1:1 anyways (which is often impossible or inefficient), but rather to attain realistic performance.

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Parabe11um

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, Zakson85 said:

How many pilots do you think flew with binoculars during the Cold War?

Zoom view isn’t there to replicate binoculars. It’s used to give the player both peripheral and foveal vision which otherwise couldn’t be simulated on a screen. You couldn’t give a player their real peripheral 220d on a screen nor would playing the game at a life sized 30-40d be practical at all. So it’s necessary to change these on the fly depending on the situation. Then there’s the question of acuity. The only way to simulate 20/20 vision on a comparably low res screen is to enlarge the image. Imagine if there was an eye chart in the game. How would you be able to read the bottom line in the game? The only way would be to zoom into it.

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Here’s 78 pages on why scaling is necessary in simulation to replicate the same visual cues pilots rely on in BFM

All that data is made irrelevant by the fact that DCS and every other flight sim uses a variable FOV “zoom view” to give players the ability to see distant targets. Essentially making everything bigger equally instead of just the target which would look really awkward. The Serfoss values would only be “correct” for a single display resolution, size, distance and a set FOV. The values he ends up with are just egregious too. Like 2x at about 3 miles. It would look just laughable in DCS

Do a search for this, it’s been discussed to death and ED just has no interest in it. 

[Parabe11um]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

All that data is made irrelevant by the fact that DCS and every other flight sim uses a variable FOV “zoom view” to give players the ability to see distant targets. Essentially making everything bigger equally instead of just the target which would look really awkward. The Serfoss values would only be “correct” for a single display resolution, size, distance and a set FOV. The values he ends up with are just egregious too. Like 2x at about 3 miles. It would look just laughable in DCS

Do a search for this, it’s been discussed to death and ED just has no interest in it. 

People have resolved that, just Google it, yo.

 

https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?28660-About-SmartScaling-and-future-high-res-monitors&p=463376&viewfull=1#post463376

 

Adjusts for FOV and res...

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Parabe11um said:

People have resolved that, just Google it, yo.

 

https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?28660-About-SmartScaling-and-future-high-res-monitors&p=463376&viewfull=1#post463376

 

Adjusts for FOV and res...

This is what you’d see using smart scaling in DCS. It would look really awful

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Why485]

15 hours ago, Zakson85 said:

What is your opinion on removing dots from dcs.

In my opinion, for purists, realism are a gigantic improvement. For irritated players whose dots disappear, it is also a plus because there will be nothing to be irritated about. There is also probably the least amount of work for the simulator's creators. We remove a product feature and everyone smiles. This opinion is not some troll. What would DCS lose if it didn't have this bad dot system?

This is how it was for so many years before and it was one of the longest running complaints the sim had, especially because it was the only sim on the market which did literally nothing to make the visibility of aircraft more realistic. It was awful and I don't want to go back. Dots are flawed, and not remotely my ideal solution, but it's better than nothing.

[Parabe11um]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This is what you’d see using smart scaling in DCS. It would look really awful

 

 

Some people care about realism and realistic performance and some don't.

Personally I am here for realism not visuals, but I suppose if visuals are your thing then this would be an issue.

[Why485]

On 9/27/2024 at 11:14 AM, =475FG= Dawger said:

It would be nice to have a VR only server side setting so we can stop trying to invent one impossible solution and just let the flat earthers play with themselves.

Absolutely deranged take. The funniest part about this is the completely faulty and incorrect assumption that visibility is the same across all VR headsets. E.g. Meta Quest headsets match 2D visibility fairly well. Are you going to ban Meta headsets from your server too?

Edited September 29, 2024 by Why485

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Parabe11um said:

Some people care about realism and realistic performance and some don't.

Personally I am here for realism not visuals, but I suppose if visuals are your thing then this would be an issue.

It just looks fantastically stupid. The funny thing is that screenshot was actually made by a smart scaling proponent Do a search on the topic, it’s been discussed a lot and ED just has no interest in it. 

[Parabe11um]

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It just looks fantastically stupid. The funny thing is that screenshot was actually made by a smart scaling proponent Do a search on the topic, it’s been discussed a lot and ED just has no interest in it. 

Idk, I think it's pretty simple, if you care about realism you care about the distance people spot irl based and what information people can pick up on at what distance.

I'm not overly concerned with what people post on a forum so much as actual military and research publications report concerning how to get realistic spotting and visual performance in sims (and games).

And from a modeling point of view I care about results/performance.

But again, I understand not all people care about getting players to perform like real life pilots.

Edited September 29, 2024 by Parabe11um

[Why485]

1 hour ago, Magic Zach said:

Hello, I'm pretty late (34 pages late) to this convo, but why hasn't ED tried scaling LODs instead of the simple black 2D pixel method DCS does now?  There's other games that already do this, and it works.  You also still get to see the color of the plane/vehicle you're looking at (since the pixel dot just makes everything black), and you also get profile detail (because the model shape is better than a square pixel).  Plus you can see the contact size change depending if the plane is flying toward/away from you, or perpendicular, or at its largest, perpendicular and in a bank, making the contact very easy to see.  Versus the 2 dimensional pixel ED seems so adamant to use.

Use size scaling LODs!

The official line from Wags and 9L has always been that this would interfere with radar RCS calculations, which is not an explanation I buy but that's what they've said for years.

The straight from the horse's mouth answer is that such a solution is "heresy" because spotting in DCS is already excellent and better than real life. If you have a problem with that, you should buy a 4k monitor that is at least 32 inches big, preferably 40. The problem is clearly because of your hardware, and you should just turn on labels and zoom in if you don't want to buy a very large and high resolution monitor.

Edited September 29, 2024 by Why485

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Parabe11um said:

actual military and research publications report concerning how to get realistic spotting and visual performance in sims (and games).

The Serfoss study was done for a Doctorate of Philosophy degree. I don’t think there’s any evidence it was ever used in any real way. And it might make sense on paper but in an actual game the results are farcical. 

8 minutes ago, Why485 said:

If you have a problem with that, you should buy a 4k monitor that is at least 32 inches big, preferably 40.

That’s honestly a more reasonable solution than encouraging players to lower their resolution. 

[Parabe11um]

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The Serfoss study was done for a Doctorate of Philosophy degree. I don’t think there’s any evidence it was ever used in any real way. And it might make sense on paper but in an actual game the results are farcical. 

Doc dissertations are pretty baller, idk how that impacts his research and findings? A lot of classic leaps forward in science are doc dissertations, lol.

I would focus on rebutting his findings if you think he is wrong.

Just go ask some peeps working on modern mil sims in the US and you will be surprised what they say about smart scaling (spoiler: it is used).

More to the point, I'm not sure why we'd reject real life spotting distance and visual information as criteria for judging spotting in games like DCS.

You just gotta ask yourself if you care about performance that matches real life (realism) or pretty visuals (which are are cool, but idk, to me that's a different game).

Edited September 29, 2024 by Parabe11um

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Parabe11um said:

Doc dissertations are pretty baller, idk what that impacts on his findings? A lot of classic leaps forward in science are doc dissertations, lol.

Just go ask some peeps working on modern mil sims in the US and you will be surprised what they say about smart scaling (spoiler: it is used).

More to the point, I'm not sure why we'd reject real life spotting distance and visual information as criteria for judging spotting.

Again it might make sense on paper but when applied in an actual game it just becomes foolish. It also doesn’t take into account the player using a variable FOV which would just invalidate all the data and the very concept itself. It’s only using a single reference for screen size res and distance. That’s not the case for a game played on varying hardware. 

It’s a waste of time bringing this up over and over again because ED has said many times they have no interest in it. If that’s what you’re looking for then you’re in for disappointment here.