fixed Sight orientation permanently shifts due to rotation limits

[DeMonteur]

7 minutes ago, RedBjorn said:

If this is intended, I’ll be shocked. It is physically impossible to see your pylons. 

Maybe there is needed some trimming like you see only black or you will see some broken glass effect... But main goal of preventing you from using sight for missile guidance after you exceeded limitation is done. I believe there is not enough data( maybe I am wrong I just do not have them)  for visualisation how it exactly looks like, when you exceed the sight limits. 

[RedBjorn]

It seems it’s causing a new center, which kicks it 30 degrees offset. Petrovich isn’t automatically closing the shutters on that yaw axis either. It’s certainly possible this could be intended, but the effect is *very* poor, and doesn’t give player feedback in a way that makes it look like an intentional simulation.

[AeriaGloria]

Petrovich doesn’t need to close it for yaw limits, as I demonstrated in my track you can rotate 180 degrees and be fine with the periscope. It’s same for elevation. But I should checked out what the periscope looks like when broken, becuase if the masking is off that would be nice to have added. All I have noticed before was the sight being “tilted” in roll when broken

[RedBjorn]

Yaw harder, back and forth, while Petrovich is locked onto anything (the ground is fine). Hit the limits. Bam. Now your site is permanently locked to a new center point, that isn’t the front of the aircraft. It’s changing the null/neutral position. Super easy to reproduce. 

[admiki]

17 minutes ago, RedBjorn said:

Yaw harder, back and forth, while Petrovich is locked onto anything (the ground is fine). Hit the limits. Bam. Now your site is permanently locked to a new center point, that isn’t the front of the aircraft. It’s changing the null/neutral position. Super easy to reproduce. 

So, you bust the limits and then wonder why sight is not centered?!

BTW, easy to fix, so sight will work as intended again.

[FusRoPotato]

5 hours ago, admiki said:

Sure, send some money to ED and they'll fix it for you, just like your mechanic.

I don't know how many bug reports you have read, but there is not an insignificant percent where it turned out to be plain user error. Track/video helps separate genuine bugs from errors. Helps everyone save time.

 

They have resolved approximately 95% of the issues I've reported, all without requiring tracks. They've even done a few hotfixes for severe bugs I've found and demonstrated on their servers. The only persistent bug they haven't addressed is the one that causes a drop in frame rate when looking backwards in a Harrier Tpod in FLIR mode.

Whenever someone reports a bug in my software or any script/mission I've developed for DCS, I usually know precisely where to look and often have a clear idea of the error as soon as it's reported. I generally expect the same level of insight from other software engineers and developers, as this is indicative of proficiency in our field. Consequently, I assume ED devs are this competent because of their high success rate in addressing all that I've reported to them.

It's disappointing to see that some participants are more interested in discrediting the existence of this bug due to a lack of a track file, rather than engaging in a constructive discussion. It's evident that this skepticism isn't really about the track file, but rather about supporting a friend's attempt to discredit my report, likely stemming from poor arguments from another thread. I want to clarify that a track file is not always necessary to confirm a bug. This issue has been replicated by several users and is not an isolated case verified by just Redbjorn and I. The description of the bug was precise, detailing a specific sequence of events leading to an undeniable outcome. Using other reports consisting of user error is a poor attempt to undermine this bug report. Engaging in baseless arguments or insults only detracts from our goal of improving the software.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[FusRoPotato]

22 minutes ago, admiki said:

So, you bust the limits and then wonder why sight is not centered?!

BTW, easy to fix, so sight will work as intended again.

No, he's wrong. You can yaw into it very gently, as the original post described very clearly and concisely, and the new limits of FOV will pop 60 degrees to the right.

[K-dot-B]

@FusRoPotato @RedBjorn Is this the issue you're describing?

Mi_24_raduga_issue_gimball_limit_3.trk Mi_24_raduga_issue_gimball_limit_4.trk

[RedBjorn]

Yup. This is why I don’t come onto the forums. Potato described it clearly. I’m out. I won’t argue. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by RedBjorn

[LuseKofte]

9 minutes ago, RedBjorn said:

Yup. This is why I don’t come onto the forums. Potato described it clearly. I’m out. I won’t argue. 

 

You simply can’t be on the inter web. They asked for a track witch easily could be provided for by pushing one button. Arguing came when people wanting things fixed simply say no to push that button. The arguing was done by you. 
Because the reason is incomprehensible, I want help but I won’t do this little effort

Edited November 16, 2023 by LuseKofte

[FusRoPotato]

 

49 minutes ago, K-dot-B said:

@FusRoPotato @RedBjorn Is this the issue you're describing?

 

Yes, that is a replication of the bug produced exactly in the way it was described, but like I explained, this effort was not necessary.

 

8 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

You simply can’t be on the inter web. They asked for a track witch easily could be provided for by pushing one button. Arguing came when people wanting things fixed simply say no to push that button. The arguing was done by you. 
Because the reason is incomprehensible, I want help but I won’t do this little effort

 

Incorrect. The issue was already reported and replicated. No track or further discussion was necessary. If was people like you who very snarkily continued to insist a track file was needed for something that was not because you have some kind of severe and stubborn egotistical problem preventing you from reading an accepting what was repeated several times over.

Edited November 16, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[AeriaGloria]

I watched K-Dot-B’s tracks and recorded one of my own. By doing so in a hover, I learned that it’s not that exceeding the yaw limit of 60 degrees that breaks the gyros, but exceeding a certain yaw angular speed. This is only possible in a hover or in slow speeds where such high yaw rates are possible. What K-Dot-B’s track seems to show is that it can be broken this way. Didn’t see anything about graphical issues
 

Once broken, I was only able to see the sides of the periscope doors/housing, so it seems graphically that part is fine. It breaks from extremely high yaw angular speed, and when broken I can’t see the pylons but the inside of the open periscope doors. So I’m not sure what the issue is? K-Dot-B’s track showed it can be broken by this high yaw rate. Is that intended to be  or not is the question. 
 

You can fix the gyros also by turning it off for 3-3.5 minutes then turning it back on, which is what was needed in real life also 

radugayawangularacceleration.trk

Edited November 16, 2023 by AeriaGloria

[admiki]

6 minutes ago, FusRoPotato said:

 

Yes, that is a replication of the bug produced exactly in the way it was described, but like I explained, this effort was not necessary.

 

Incorrect. The issue was already reported and replicated. No track or further discussion was necessary. If was people like you who very snarkily continued to insist a track file was needed for something that was not because you have some kind of severe and stubborn egotistical problem preventing you from reading an accepting what was repeated several times over.

 

Yep, reproduced and easily fixed.

[K-dot-B]

The only possible bug I noticed is that the sight always gets stuck in the right side, no matter which way I turn. I'd appreciate if others would look into this, I could do a separate report on it.

 

Mini-rant:

This test took me about an hour to set up and do (fueled by my love for this module and the anger about OP's reluctance to help), and it turned out to be a non-issue. We can't really expect the forum staff to go to such lengths with every "bug" posted each day. It is absolutely crucial to include a track with every report no matter how minor it may be. Ridiculous. 

[admiki]

6 minutes ago, K-dot-B said:

The only possible bug I noticed is that the sight always gets stuck in the right side, no matter which way I turn. I'd appreciate if others would look into this, I could do a separate report on it.

 

Mini-rant:

This test took me about an hour to set up and do (fueled by my love for this module and the anger about OP's reluctance to help), and it turned out to be a non-issue. We can't really expect the forum staff to go to such lengths with every "bug" posted each day. It is absolutely crucial to include a track with every report no matter how minor it may be. Ridiculous. 

Well, I don't think it's physically possible for sight to look that much back, so it is a bug.

Even before all this, sight would always topple to the left. When we didn't know how to fix it, we would take new bird. Since it is an easy fix, now we just have to wait couple of minutes. 

[AeriaGloria]

2 minutes ago, K-dot-B said:

The only possible bug I noticed is that the sight always gets stuck in the right side, no matter which way I turn. I'd appreciate if others would look into this, I could do a separate report on it.

I’ve tried doing left pedal turns and always end up with the same toppling of the gyros to the right, so that you can only target locations on your right side. Interesting observation  

[FusRoPotato]

8 minutes ago, K-dot-B said:

Mini-rant:

This test took me about an hour to set up and do (fueled by my love for this module and the anger about OP's reluctance to help), and it turned out to be a non-issue. We can't really expect the forum staff to go to such lengths with every "bug" posted each day. It is absolutely crucial to include a track with every report no matter how minor it may be. Ridiculous. 

The only thing crucial is to keep calm and to read carefully. It took you about an hour to waste your own time with something that was warned several times to have  already been verified, then proceeded to demonstrate nothing greater than commitment to an entitled hissy fit.

2 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

I’ve tried doing left pedal turns and always end up with the same toppling of the gyros to the right, so that you can only target locations on your right side. Interesting observation  

If you yaw very slowly to the right, and just gently tickle the right-hand limits, the sight will eventually nap all the way to the right side. This is most likely a simple Euler rotation matrix singularity translation mistake.

[K-dot-B]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:45 PM, FusRoPotato said:

How to reproduce (and this has to be exact)

1. Command Petrovich to look forward and search a location.
2. Yaw the helicopter either 90 degrees left or right gently while keeping the helicopter flat and level

 

My problem is that following your exact steps led nowhere.

You wrote "gently" in your description. I turned left and right in a hover many times gently without ever getting the gyro to topple, you can see this in the beginning of my first track. At the end I had to kick the rudder pretty harshly, which I knew would mess up the sight, but the report suggested it was something else causing this.

People interpret written symptoms differently. A track is solid evidence.

[FusRoPotato]

5 minutes ago, K-dot-B said:

My problem is that following your exact steps led nowhere.

You wrote "gently" in your description. I turned left and right in a hover many times gently without ever getting the gyro to topple, you can see this in the beginning of my first track. At the end I had to kick the rudder pretty harshly, which I knew would mess up the sight, but the report suggested it was something else causing this.

People interpret written symptoms differently. A track is solid evidence.

I also described that a track would not be necessary, but despite not being a dev yourself or familiar with the code, you insisted otherwise and wasted your own time trying to make a point. Starting to understand why BN and NL lock threads so quickly.

[admiki]

38 minutes ago, K-dot-B said:

My problem is that following your exact steps led nowhere.

You wrote "gently" in your description. I turned left and right in a hover many times gently without ever getting the gyro to topple, you can see this in the beginning of my first track. At the end I had to kick the rudder pretty harshly, which I knew would mess up the sight, but the report suggested it was something else causing this.

People interpret written symptoms differently. A track is solid evidence.

I did gentle turns and toppled the sight

28 minutes ago, FusRoPotato said:

I also described that a track would not be necessary, but despite not being a dev yourself or familiar with the code, you insisted otherwise and wasted your own time trying to make a point. Starting to understand why BN and NL lock threads so quickly.

You should stop pointing how much smarter than everyone else you are. If anything, you should say thank you to AG for showing you how to fix sight once it's boken, which obviously you didn't know.

[K-dot-B]

5 minutes ago, admiki said:

I did gentle turns and toppled the sight

But it didn't happen after just one or two turns, did it? I probably jumped to conclusions too fast, you're right. To me the report made it sound like this was a new issue where the sight gets toppled from the slightest mistreatment, and not the known weakness of the system when doing quick turns. I also did want to make a point about how difficult it is to reproduce an issue that seems trivial to some, that's true.

The periscope being able to see backwards and the gyro only failing to one side still remain as possible bugs.

 

[FusRoPotato]

32 minutes ago, admiki said:

You should stop pointing how much smarter than everyone else you are. If anything, you should say thank you to AG for showing you how to fix sight once it's boken, which obviously you didn't know.

If you're going to throw shade on someone for completely baseless and delusional reasons, that's heat you make for yourself. You're pointing at me telling me I'm the one pointing... lol that's definitely not what's been happening here.

[Flappie]

Thanks everyone. I'll report it.

[Flappie]

Fixed with today's update (2.9.3.51704).

[RedBjorn]

Just wanted to chime in.... First, thanks for fixing this. Much appreciated.

To the folks that acted like there wasn't an issue, were jerks, etc., welp... Guess you were wrong, eh?

c:\gloat.exe