2.9 Peterovich AI cannot see the target

[HC_Official]

So he for sure did get better since 2.9 update patch on thurs BUT he is still kinda blind sometimes

Was flying online this morning and encountered issues several times, I took some screen shots

Shot 1   1 x truck and 1 x technical  , ran in slowly pointed cursor straight at them and asked him to find them ... found nothing

Shot 2 1 x enemy tank in open , same again ran in slowly straight on asked him to find it ... nope

Edited October 28, 2023 by HC_Official

[RedBjorn]

Probably related to this:

 

[KoN]

Yes same for me today also online server .

I searched a factory complex got a list of three targets only to find out after another search and finding nothing that there were more targets in that same area . 

And some of these targets are out in the open . It's a bit odd . Also keeps locking onto air targets . And Picks up targets in a bank . 

[FusRoPotato]

null

Not only is there another issue where the sight bugs out and can't move correctly because it somehow turns itself backwards, but in almost every encounter with ground units I come across, he cannot see them in plain view unless I hover there for 4-5 minutes. I'm sorry but this sight and AI needs a professional rework. Human gunner can't move the sight easily and Petro is blind.

[admiki]

4 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

null

Not only is there another issue where the sight bugs out and can't move correctly because it somehow turns itself backwards, but in almost every encounter with ground units I come across, he cannot see them in plain view unless I hover there for 4-5 minutes. I'm sorry but this sight and AI needs a professional rework. Human gunner can't move the sight easily and Petro is blind.

For sight turning itself backwards, try telling Petrovich to close it before rolling more than 30 deg.

[AeriaGloria]

11 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

null

Not only is there another issue where the sight bugs out and can't move correctly because it somehow turns itself backwards, but in almost every encounter with ground units I come across, he cannot see them in plain view unless I hover there for 4-5 minutes. I'm sorry but this sight and AI needs a professional rework. Human gunner can't move the sight easily and Petro is blind.

Human gunner? As human I have no issue moving sight. There is 10 second delay after turning on observe doors before gyro spins up and you can move the sight 

[FusRoPotato]

19 hours ago, admiki said:

For sight turning itself backwards, try telling Petrovich to close it before rolling more than 30 deg.

It's bugged. It's not possible for it to turn more than 60 degrees to the right, but it can turn 120. Once Petro searches near those limits, it's new lefthand limit is zero degrees and righthand is 120, instead of the range being -60 to +60. This is physically impossible because it's a simple mirror resting in a gimbal inside a housing of which the doors open to a -60 to +60 view. You can't physically aim it further than that.

All you have to do to reproduce this bug is to very very slowly and gently yaw the helicopter while flat, level, and Petro is looking at a point that is more than 60 degrees to either the left or right. Even if you have him look too far left, the bug will permanently shift the entire sight 60 degrees to the right. Don't roll. It has nothing to do with roll.

12 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Human gunner? As human I have no issue moving sight. There is 10 second delay after turning on observe doors before gyro spins up and you can move the sight 

You can't move the sight like Petrovich can. This is a well-known controls limitation everyone who flies this module is well familiar with. It's simply too slow and based on inadequate controls translation. There is no visual reference to show what you can feel on the wheel, nor any quick way to slew it around, much like trim wheels on a P-51. 

I'd imagine you could use it just fine so long as your pilot is in a perfect hover and gives you five minutes to deal with it. Otherwise, you are starting to look habitually dishonest.

Edited November 12, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[AeriaGloria]

6 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

It's bugged. It's not possible for it to turn more than 60 degrees to the right, but it can turn 120. Once Petro searches near those limits, it's new lefthand limit is zero degrees and righthand is 120, instead of the range being -60 to +60. This is physically impossible because it's a simple mirror resting in a gimbal inside a housing of which the doors open to a -60 to +60 view. You can't physically aim it further than that.

All you have to do to reproduce this bug is to very very slowly and gently yaw the helicopter while flat, level, and Petro is looking at a point that is more than 60 degrees to either the left or right. Even if you have him look too far left, the bug will permanently shift the entire sight 60 degrees to the right. Don't roll. It has nothing to do with roll.

You can't move the sight like Petrovich can. This is a well-known controls limitation everyone who flies this module is well familiar with. It's simply too slow and based on inadequate controls translation. There is no visual reference to show what you can feel on the wheel, nor any quick way to slew it around, much like trim wheels on a P-51. 

I'd imagine you could use it just fine so long as your pilot is in a perfect hover and gives you five minutes to deal with it. Otherwise, you are starting to look habitually dishonest.

 

If it’s a big your best way to get it fixed is to leave a track at the thread you made here 

 

 

As a human gunner I can say the sight has all the proper and realistic limitations it should have when simulated. And I do often use the “ LAlt + S” yellow line aid that gives some feedback to controller limit. I can use it just fine and destroy targets as quick as Petrovich provided I know where they are. So I really dont know what you mean by lack of visual feedback or any habitual dishonesty, as I’m trying to only explain the performance we see in game and what my own experience has been, and how those match up to documentation.

10 sec gyro spin up time, 10 degree/s vertical slew, 20 degree/s horizontal slew, 0.7 degree minimum slew. If target is in front, no issues. Unless I misunderstand what you’re trying to say  
 

If you want to help improve Petrovich spotting, your best bet is to leave a track in this thread 

Edited November 12, 2023 by AeriaGloria

[FusRoPotato]

What do you need a track for? I described how to replicate the bug easily.

On 11/12/2023 at 5:30 AM, AeriaGloria said:

10 degree/s vertical slew, 20 degree/s horizontal slew, 0.7 degree minimum slew. If target is in front, no issues. Unless I misunderstand what you’re trying to say  

 

The handles aren't push buttons that limit you to some degrees per second. They are directly connected to the mirror.

Edited November 14, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[AeriaGloria]

4 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

What do you need a track for? I described how to replicate the bug easily.

The handles aren't push buttons that limit you to some degrees per second. They are directly connected to the mirror.

 

The handles absolutely limit your slew speed. Minimum speed of 0.07 degree/ rotation when rotated 0.07 degrees respectively, and 10 degrees/s max vertical slew and 20 degrees/s max horizontal slew. It is no coincidence that the handles themselves only move 10 degrees vertically and 20 degrees vertically. I’m almost 100% sure it is an electrical connection, not a physical one. Documentation in real life and the game confirm these numbers 

I don’t need a track, but if you want ED to fix it they will need one, it helps them test it to see if fixed work or exactly what is causing the issue. Attaching a track can be the difference between ED not being able to make testing time in their schedule, or the difference where they realize someone has a valid report with a track that allows them to easily replicate and see the source of the issue, and then better be able to prioritize testing time. 

[FusRoPotato]

It says "Rate of slew of stabilized line of sight." You are misinterpreting what that means, likely because you don't understand how old corrective gyro systems work. 

Pay special attention to this: "Maximum rate of laying of stabilized line of sight" This means the gyro is no longer 'layed' when moving faster than 2.5 degrees per second. It will not be considered 'aiming at a target'. Beyond that, you move it manually, mechanically, as fast as you want, then when moving faster than the stabilized slew rate limits, the gyro can no longer keep up to maintain a stabilized line. Of course, in reality, there is going to be some kind of physical limit that promises damage if zipped fast enough. If you turn the steering wheel of your car fast enough, I'm sure you could break something, but the specs here do not describe such a thing, nor are you ever likely to find such a spec. 

It's a direct connection and does not limit physical input, literally the same type of device they used on tanks and boats of the time. If you think they had digital or analog joystick feedback loop systems back then, you are grossly overestimating technology of the time. They are very simple and use a gryo to correct, dampen, and stabilize the motion. That correction will have rotational rate limits as shown, but the control input of the mirror will not. Nobody had the tech back then to make such an input scheme responsive and accurate enough. I don't know the exact physical details, but most stuff like that designed prior to the 80's would have been a quad pull-pull cable system because it does the job extremely well. At least in my experience seeing it implemented on tanks, that's typically what was used. 

What occurs here is something that has occurred many times in DCS. A manual is read, misinterpreted, and thus a system becomes misrepresented, or a failure becomes overrepresented. The recently corrected wing stall myth is a perfect example of that.

The way Petro moves it is far more realistic. If you think you're proficient at it, please post some demonstration videos. You'd be the first.

Edited November 14, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[AeriaGloria]

2 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

It says "Rate of slew of stabilized line of sight." You are misinterpreting what that means, likely because you don't understand how old corrective gyro systems work. 

Pay special attention to this: "Maximum rate of laying of stabilized line of sight" This means the gyro is no longer 'layed' when moving faster than 2.5 degrees per second. It will not be considered 'aiming at a target'. Beyond that, you move it manually, mechanically, as fast as you want, then when moving faster than the stabilized slew rate limits, the gyro can no longer keep up to maintain a stabilized line. Of course, in reality, there is going to be some kind of physical limit that promises damage if zipped fast enough. If you turn the steering wheel of your car fast enough, I'm sure you could break something, but the specs here do not describe such a thing, nor are you ever likely to find such a spec. 

It's a direct connection and does not limit physical input, literally the same type of device they used on tanks and boats of the time. If you think they had digital or analog joystick feedback loop systems back then, you are grossly overestimating technology of the time. They are very simple and use a gryo to correct, dampen, and stabilize the motion. That correction will have rotational rate limits as shown, but the control input of the mirror will not. Nobody had the tech back then to make such an input scheme responsive and accurate enough. I don't know the exact physical details, but most stuff like that designed prior to the 80's would have been a quad pull-pull cable system because it does the job extremely well. At least in my experience seeing it implemented on tanks, that's typically what was used. 

What occurs here is something that has occurred many times in DCS. A manual is read, misinterpreted, and thus a system becomes misrepresented, or a failure becomes overrepresented. The recently corrected wing stall myth is a perfect example of that.

The way Petro moves it is far more realistic. If you think you're proficient at it, please post some demonstration videos. You'd be the first.

 

   The precise phrase in the manual is “Скорость переброса линии визирования,” or “line of sight (transfer) speed.” 
 

This is from Mi-24V Book II combat employment 1987 
 

  Im not going to post a video for you, but if you wish to check it in game it will match those values, and has been specifically mentioned by the head of Belsimtek/Mi-24 team PilotMi-8 as being why the handles only move 10 degrees up/down and 20 degrees left/right. It is designed so that the line of sight moves precisely at the same angular rate as the angle of the controller in a linear relationship, 1 degree movement is 1 degree/s movement by periscope, as long as movement of the handles are above 0.07 degrees. 

 

  Wether you believe me or not is of no consequence, if you wish to find out somewhere else go ahead. I am not saying it is electric, and even though the 9K113 Raduga-Sh system did have the advancement of having digital components compared to earlier Raduga-F periscope, all I am saying is multiple sources agree on how the system transfers CPG movement of the PN handles to periscope movement. 
 

  I do not know why you think that the way Petro uses it is fundamentally more realistic, but whatever. If I can notice this bug, I will post a track of it 

Edited November 15, 2023 by AeriaGloria

[FusRoPotato]

So you're unable to piece together the specs into a contextual understanding and have never seen one of these devices before, but still scratch for an argument regardless to defend the presence of a few bugs? You have zero sources in agreeance with your interpretation.

That sight is just an upside-down periscope that was designed all the way back in the 30's that was adapted to many boats, submarines, and tanks. It is completely mechanical. Sorry but that's just the fact of the matter. There is no physical limit to how fast you can aim it. You've taught yourself this is how it really works by DCS reference, a common mistake, and some book that lacks any technical drawings because it's just another author's loose interpretation.

Edited November 15, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[AeriaGloria]

6 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

So you're unable to piece together the specs into a contextual understanding and have never seen one of these devices before, but still scratch for an argument regardless to defend the presence of a few bugs? You have zero sources in agreeance with your interpretation.

That sight is just an upside-down periscope that was designed all the way back in the 30's that was adapted to many boats, submarines, and tanks. It is completely mechanical. Sorry but that's just the fact of the matter. There is no physical limit to how fast you can aim it. You've taught yourself this is how it really works by DCS reference, a common mistake, and some book that lacks any technical drawings because it's just another author's loose interpretation.

 

   What are you arguing? I’m not trying to say the handles aren’t mechanically connected, only that implementation in game is correct in regards to degrees of second movement in linear relationship to handle movement. Do you have a different idea of how it works? Becuase this is how it works in DCS also. 

   All I’ve been trying to say that currently the player representation of the sight is operated exactly as it is in real life. With realistic limits of

-maximum rotational movement and minimum movement, (10/20 degrees/s vertically/horizontally, 0.07 degrees/s minimum)

-as well as accurate rotation limits (60 degrees each side, 15 up and 20 down)

-It rotates per second the exact same amount of degrees the PN handles are turned, and once the PN handles are turned less then 0.07 degrees or centered the movement stops.

-I’m talking about For the player, not Petrovich. 

   I offhand once said I was sure it could be an electrical connection, and I have no problem conceding that point if I was wrong. But for angular movement speeds, really please tell me where I and ED are wrong in this. 

   You said “The handles aren't push buttons that limit you to some degrees per second,” 

- so how am I wrong about the movement limits/rates and operation of the Raduga-Sh periscope? What are they?

“Youhave zero sources in agreeance with your interpretation.”

- Do you have any sources that agree with your interpretation? I have shown mine

“So you're unable to piece together the specs into a contextual understanding and have never seen one of these devices before, but still scratch for an argument regardless to defend the presence of a few bugs?”

-You are the one that posted here about a bug to get it fixed 

   I am here just saying the limits of the periscope verified in all manuals and books that are publicly accessible about 9K113 and Raduga-Sh and you are saying I’m wrong.

  So please back it up with an argument as to why my statements are wrong about the angular movement of the periscope attached to an gyro-stabilized Platform with a photo-diode array and 2 different analog-digital computer systems. That would be much more productive to actually tell me why I’m wrong then attacking my character in these ad-hominems.

Now, maybe I’ll go record that track for you so this bug that you are trying to get fixed might get the attention it needs if it’s there 

EDIT: here’s track, no bug found and posted in relevant thread, this thread would need a track on spotting issues https://forum.dcs.world/topic/336382-sight-orientation-permanently-shifts-due-to-rotation-limits/#comment-5315577

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by AeriaGloria

[admiki]

6 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

So you're unable to piece together the specs into a contextual understanding and have never seen one of these devices before, but still scratch for an argument regardless to defend the presence of a few bugs? You have zero sources in agreeance with your interpretation.

That sight is just an upside-down periscope that was designed all the way back in the 30's that was adapted to many boats, submarines, and tanks. It is completely mechanical. Sorry but that's just the fact of the matter. There is no physical limit to how fast you can aim it. You've taught yourself this is how it really works by DCS reference, a common mistake, and some book that lacks any technical drawings because it's just another author's loose interpretation.

 

Do you have any drawings of Raduga? What is your real life experience?

 

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

   What are you arguing? I’m not trying to say the handles aren’t mechanically connected, only that implementation in game is correct in regards to degrees of second movement in linear relationship to handle movement. Do you have a different idea of how it works? Becuase this is how it works in DCS also. 

   All I’ve been trying to say that currently the player representation of the sight is operated exactly as it is in real life. With realistic limits of

-maximum rotational movement and minimum movement, (10/20 degrees/s vertically/horizontally, 0.07 degrees/s minimum)

-as well as accurate rotation limits (60 degrees each side, 15 up and 20 down)

-It rotates per second the exact same amount of degrees the PN handles are turned, and once the PN handles are turned less then 0.07 degrees or centered the movement stops.

-I’m talking about For the player, not Petrovich. 

   I offhand once said I was sure it could be an electrical connection, and I have no problem conceding that point if I was wrong. But for angular movement speeds, really please tell me where I and ED are wrong in this. 

   You said “The handles aren't push buttons that limit you to some degrees per second,” 

- so how am I wrong about the movement limits/rates and operation of the Raduga-Sh periscope? What are they?

“Youhave zero sources in agreeance with your interpretation.”

- Do you have any sources that agree with your interpretation? I have shown mine

“So you're unable to piece together the specs into a contextual understanding and have never seen one of these devices before, but still scratch for an argument regardless to defend the presence of a few bugs?”

-You are the one that posted here about a bug to get it fixed 

   I am here just saying the limits of the periscope verified in all manuals and books that are publicly accessible about 9K113 and Raduga-Sh and you are saying I’m wrong.

  So please back it up with an argument as to why my statements are wrong about the angular movement of the periscope attached to an gyro-stabilized Platform with a photo-diode array and 2 different analog-digital computer systems. That would be much more productive to actually tell me why I’m wrong then attacking my character in these ad-hominems.

Now, maybe I’ll go record that track for you so this bug that you are trying to get fixed might get the attention it needs if it’s there 

EDIT: here’s track, no bug found and posted in relevant thread, this thread would need a track on spotting issues https://forum.dcs.world/topic/336382-sight-orientation-permanently-shifts-due-to-rotation-limits/#comment-5315577

 

 

Lazzy did mention something that is still to come to DCS Hind about how pilot can guide the missile boresighted. It has something to do with CPG releasing the handles and the springload back to center and that keeps sight centered. Not sure if there is any other switch that needs to be moved for this.

[AeriaGloria]

10 hours ago, admiki said:

Do you have any drawings of Raduga? What is your real life experience?

 

Lazzy did mention something that is still to come to DCS Hind about how pilot can guide the missile boresighted. It has something to do with CPG releasing the handles and the springload back to center and that keeps sight centered. Not sure if there is any other switch that needs to be moved for this.

No nothing, I think you could just put ASP-17V into man mode but that would just cage the pipper. Since it’s possible with multi crew I think all it needs is a way to trigger it with Petrovich. Which would make sense if they use the auto/man switch for that on ASP-17V 

[RedBjorn]

Damn bro, you must have a strong back. That’s a lot of heavy lifting on behalf of ED. I’ll need a track of your lifting please. 

[AeriaGloria]

2 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

You showed me a page from a loosely written book that has a picture of a mechanical periscope on the left. I bet you didn't even recognize it.

I also found a copy of it and they had this, a direct quote:
 

You didn't even choose to read your own source?

 

  The page I posted is from a weapons brochure……it is page 377. What you posted is from this website 

https://www.16va.be/4.2_les_mi-24_part1_eng.html

   It is a website with some good technical info, but is not sourced and thus has more inaccuracies than say, a 1987 manual by the Soviet Ministry of Defense for users of Mi-24V/P. I don’t know why you think my source and your website excerpt is from the same book and I didn’t read it? I could tell the website your quote was from just from reading it because they are the only ones to claim it’s a submarine periscope from the 1930s, which sounds a lot like exaggeration to me if you are using this non-sourced article to claim it can’t rotate at specific degree/s rates. If it’s actually from a book and has the same weapons brochure my source is from, please tell me the name of this book so I can buy it!!!!
 

   I have already posted the information of the manual my information is from, but I won’t post the full thing to not break the rules. Here is front page, and btw there is no Mi-24P manual in the world in this time of the 1980s, only a supplement that you would combine with Mi-24V manuals 

   So tell me why I should trust a non source website over a Soviet MOD manual and a brochure from the military industry, and how this non sourced website comparing it to a 1930s submarine periscope makes it incapable of holding a specific degree/s rotation. I would also love to learn the book you are referring to also 

EDIT: forgot manual cover 

   While I’m here, why don’t I post some other German sources from here. I love how it shows how the periscope is operated by servo motors and angle encoders and amplifiers. https://www.nva-flieger.de/index.php/technik/bew/palr-falanga.html

And yes, I am aware of how the periscope looks naked 

   EDIT: brings back some memories going through my Raduga-Sh album that I’ve been collecting photos of for a while, have you seen how the gyro unit looks inside? It’s a nice bit of machinery. Perhaps you can point out the mechanical connections that would attach to it?
 

   Sorry to keep editing, But I did some reading(!!!) of the German source I linked, which is sourced to two books on NVA military knowledge, and in its description of the earlier Raduga-F system 

“To align the field of vision on the corresponding terrain section, the head mirror is swiveled with the control panel. When panning the console housing around the vertical or Horizontal axis, the corresponding signals are emitted to the electrical block. Here, these signals are amplified and forwarded to electric motors, which rotate the lower mirror analogously and synchronously with the control panel movement.”

Im not even trying to say it’s electric, just that it’s advanced enough to maintain an angular speed in linear proportion to the angle of the PN controller. Which according to this source, is an indeed electric connection, and also seemed to be shown by the technical drawings. If you know better how it works, let us know  

Edited November 16, 2023 by AeriaGloria

[LuseKofte]

When a man prefers to argue for hours rather than click a button and provide a track taking five minutes, he is in for the arguing not the help. 

[Kobymaru]

18 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

When a man prefers to argue for hours rather than click a button and provide a track taking five minutes, he is in for the arguing not the help. 

Or he is just tired of doing the work of testers for free. Or he's just fed up being asked for tracks like they aren't usually ignored. In reality, "gib track pls" is often not more than busywork to shut people up so they don't complain as much.

BTW has this topic completely derailed and should I create a new one? Because in certain instances Petro STILL can't find certain targets, while it can find other targets right next to them.

For example, in one instance, he was able to see almost every vehicle at an airfield EXCEPT a ZSU-23-4. Replaying that mission lead to the same result, where all vehicles close by (left and right) were able to be found by petro, but NOT that one particular. So I can guarantee that it had nothing to do with a broken raduga, or wrong gimbal limits.

No, I will not provide a track for this unless you want to browse my hours-long several hundred MB multiplayer track. I have better things to do than spent hours of unpaid developer/tester work to create perfectly reproducible missions, for example I could be PLAYING a module that I paid for instead.