ILS Landing

[too-cool]

I'm attempting to learn how to land the F15E using Only the ILS system, want to land at a base that does not have {Tacan}, how is that accomplished?  Any Tutorials would be helpful, would prefer to do this without the use of the Tacan. Thanks  TC

Edited November 4, 2023 by too-cool
added more

[jaylw314]

There isn't anything to learn.  ILS are not used for guidance to the airport area since they are so narrow.  You would either use a procedure that calls out nav beacons (like TACAN Or VOR) or GPS waypoints, or you'd be getting vectors from a radar controller onto the final approach path.

FWIW, a typical ILS procedure at uncontrolled airports (which pretty much applies to DCS) is to fly to the airport (using some type of guidance), fly outbound on the ILS course, pick up the ILS guidance while outbound, and after 6-10 miles make a 45 deg procedure turn back onto the final approach course, aiming to establish around 2500' above the airport elevation until you hit the glideslope from below

Edited November 5, 2023 by jaylw314

[draconus]

On 11/4/2023 at 11:20 PM, too-cool said:

I'm attempting to learn how to land the F15E using Only the ILS system, want to land at a base that does not have {Tacan}, how is that accomplished?  Any Tutorials would be helpful, would prefer to do this without the use of the Tacan.

You can do this using the ATC:

Set airport radio freq. Either write it down before the mission or use F10 airport info. Same with ILS freq (both directions if applicable).

Call inbound - you'll get range and bearing to the approach fix (5nm from runway).

Use this info to fly there either with proportional navigation (you know, good ole speed and time calculations, like 300kts GS gives you 5nm/minute) or make yourself new steerpoint from F10 coords.

You'll be contacted by tower when you reach the airport vicinity - you'll get active runway.

Enter correct ILS freq for the active runway and remember it's about 5nm from the approach fix so fly the direction of the runway from there and you should see the runway at this point and get ILS signal.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

You can do this using the ATC:

Set airport radio freq. Either write it down before the mission or use F10 airport info. Same with ILS freq (both directions if applicable).

Call inbound - you'll get range and bearing to the approach fix (5nm from runway).

Use this info to fly there either with proportional navigation (you know, good ole speed and time calculations, like 300kts GS gives you 5nm/minute) or make yourself new steerpoint from F10 coords.

You'll be contacted by tower when you reach the airport vicinity - you'll get active runway.

Enter correct ILS freq for the active runway and remember it's about 5nm from the approach fix so fly the direction of the runway from there and you should see the runway at this point and get ILS signal.

That's a good point, I forgot the AI ATC can give you that basic vector, I'm so used to it being useless  Although 5 nm and 1500' is pretty tight for starting, I'd still think about going outbound first at 2500', especially if there's terrain in the area

[Ptimat31]

If you are 10 NM at 3000ft, you are on profile, then 300ft/NM. With something like 140kt final approach speed, you'll have a vertical speed of roughly 700ft/min on a 3 degrees Glide

Cheers

[too-cool]

I use 12nm @ 3600ft for 3 degree glide slope to intercept the ILS signal to rwy, my question is do I add the airfield alt. to the 3600ft glide slope for the correct alt to receive the ILS signal?  Thanks  TC

Edited November 14, 2023 by too-cool
corrections

[razo+r]

3 minutes ago, too-cool said:

I use 12nm @ 3600ft for 3 degree glide slope to intercept the ILS signal, my question is do I add the airfield alt. to the 3600ft glide slope for the correct alt to receive the ILS signal? I'm Learning so don't hit me to hard.  Thanks  TC

Those 3600ft are above touchdown zone elevation. So yes, if the airport is not at Sea Level, you add the altitude to those 3600ft.

If the airport is at 4000ft, you can't intercept the glideslop at 3600ft.

[too-cool]

What if the airport is at 358ft do I add this to the 3600 or subtract the amount from the 3600ft?  Thanks

[razo+r]

28 minutes ago, too-cool said:

What if the airport is at 358ft do I add this to the 3600 or subtract the amount from the 3600ft?  Thanks

Like I said, you add it.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, too-cool said:

I use 12nm @ 3600ft for 3 degree glide slope to intercept the ILS signal to rwy, my question is do I add the airfield alt. to the 3600ft glide slope for the correct alt to receive the ILS signal?  Thanks  TC

 

That depends entirely upon what you're using to measure your altitude.  If you're using the altimeter, it then depends entirely on what your altimeter is set to.  If it's set to QFE, you don't add the the airport altitude.  If it's set to QNH, you do.  If it's still set to 29.92, you have some skill issues

 

[Buzz313th]

Usually you would be vectored to the initial approach fix via ATC, given a altitude to maintain and then cleared to intercept the localizer, then after established, cleared for the ILS.  If no ATC, you would fly the published ILS approach.  Since neither of these really exist in DCS, you would either take the one vector the AI ATC gives you to the FAF (Final approach fix) and then turn inbound to runway heading for the localizer course to the ILS where you would intercept both the Localizer and Glideslope.  The only really wanky thing about DCS though, is that the Vector that the AI gives you for the FAF also gives you a altitude clearance to "Runway Pattern Altitude", which is way too low and lower than the MSA or the typical glideslope intercept altitude you would normally get at the Final Approach Fix. Since there are no Approach charts for any of the ILS's included with DCS, you either have to find one, or calculate minimum safe altitude from terrain on your way to the FAF.

Edit..   I was wrong and edited my post..  It appears some of the maps for DCS have included approach charts...   If the maps you have installed in DCS have them, they would be on the kneeboard and or in the "kneeboard" folder for the addon.  

Below is an ILS/LOC approach for Nellis Runway 21.    I found it in my kneeboard folder.  If you look at the chart you will see there are fixes that can be established with Rnav or ground based nav aids.  If you follow the approach, it will deliver you to the IAP, then the FAF for localizer and glideslope intercept with altitude limits that will guarantee terrain clearance.   

 

It's kind of a disservice that at the least DCS doesn't really offer a safe vector to do a precision approach, considering all the attention to detail in the other areas of the sim.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Buzz313th

[afnav130]

Agreed, ILS and ATC vectors are something that is sorely missing DCS especially in bad weather or at night. Hopefully that is something that they can fix soon.

[Nealius]

If I don't have charts or I'm too lazy to use them, I just do a 12~13nm TACAN arc before intercepting localizer.

[Buzz313th]

3 hours ago, Nealius said:

If I don't have charts or I'm too lazy to use them, I just do a 12~13nm TACAN arc before intercepting localizer.

At what altitude?  Are you referencing the F10 kneeboard maps for terrain clearance? 

[razo+r]

10 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

At what altitude?  Are you referencing the F10 kneeboard maps for terrain clearance? 

For a 3 degrees glideslope 12 miles are roughly 3600ft AAL. As for terrain clearance, you can check the F10 map, that's easier and more visible than the kneeboard. 

[Buzz313th]

22 minutes ago, razo+r said:

For a 3 degrees glideslope 12 miles are roughly 3600ft AAL. As for terrain clearance, you can check the F10 map, that's easier and more visible than the kneeboard. 

In minimums, It's not altitude while established on the ILS that could be the issue'  It's the altitude along the adhoc approach path to the ILS that will be the issue. 

It shouldn't be that hard for ED to add a bit of logic to the minimal ATC they have now. Let IMC conditions trigger two vectors with reasonable altitude clearance.  First vector takes you to a 20-30 mile point at MSA+3000/4000 feet then next vector turns you onto a 30 degree Localizer intercept course with a clearance down to route MSA+1000 feet for glideslope intercept.

If conditions are well above Minimums, then a vector should take you directly to the field at Traffic Pattern Alt +1000 to expect a circling visual.

How hard could that be?  

Edited November 20, 2023 by Buzz313th

[razo+r]

19 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

In minimums, It's not altitude while established on the ILS that could be the issue'  It's the altitude along the adhoc approach path to the ILS that will be the issue. 

If you are bothered by potential collision along your way down the ILS, you can still use the F10 map. You have the altitude readout on your cursors position, a map with altitude relief markings, and you have trees present on the F10 map. Without a chart, there is no other way to get what you want.

19 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

It shouldn't be that hard for ED to add a bit of logic to the minimal ATC they have now. Let IMC conditions trigger two vectors with reasonable altitude clearance.  First vector takes you to a 20-30 mile point at MSA+3000/4000 feet then next vector turns you onto a 30 degree Localizer intercept course with a clearance down to route MSA+1000 feet for glideslope intercept.

They are working on a new ATC system so just have some patience and wait for that.

19 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

If conditions are well above Minimums, then a vector should take you directly to the field at Traffic Pattern Alt +1000 to expect a circling visual.

How hard could that be?  

 

Current ATC already gives you a vector to a specific point.

[Buzz313th]

7 minutes ago, razo+r said:

Current ATC already gives you a vector to a specific point.

The vector is roughly to the IAP at TPA..  Which is a bit laughable..  

Edited November 20, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Nealius]

On approach to the arc I'm usually descending from cruise altitude, continuing to descend while on the arc until something like the aforementioned 3600ft, or sometimes lower like 2,500ft. I'm always flying around pretty flat areas that I'm familiar with. If there's mountains involved I won't do any instrument stuff without at the least pre-planning via F10 to stay above obstacles; but in most cases the only time I'm dealing with mountains is Nellis 21 approaches so I just have that one committed to memory.

[jaylw314]

10 hours ago, Nealius said:

On approach to the arc I'm usually descending from cruise altitude, continuing to descend while on the arc until something like the aforementioned 3600ft, or sometimes lower like 2,500ft. I'm always flying around pretty flat areas that I'm familiar with. If there's mountains involved I won't do any instrument stuff without at the least pre-planning via F10 to stay above obstacles; but in most cases the only time I'm dealing with mountains is Nellis 21 approaches so I just have that one committed to memory.

Mountains are a good reason to do the airport->outbound on ILS->procedure turn approach.  That way you can stay mostly above the ILS path, which, by definition, shouldn't have a lot of obstacles.

It's not perfect, but until we get actually useful ATC in DCS, it should work for most airports.  No refunds if you happen to find that one little hill next to the ILS during your procedure turn, though  

[draconus]

Mountains? TFR on

[Buzz313th]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Mountains? TFR on

True that...  Which Module has TFR?  15E?

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Buzz313th said:

Which Module has TFR?  15E?

Yep, we're in F-15E forum.