reported AI S-3B Weapons Bay and Loadout Inaccuracies

[Vampyre]

The S-3B Viking weapons bay opens to the loading position during weapons release. This should not be possible in flight. The loading position can only be achieved from outside of the aircraft using the ground override switch on the belly of the aircraft.

 

This is how far the weapons bay doors should open in flight.

This is how far they open in game at the moment.

The Weapons bay doors open entirely too fast as well. If my memory serves me, it should take eight to 10 seconds to open and close the doors from the cockpit.

Notable currently in game weapons missing are the Mk-83 LDGP, Mk-82 Snakeye, ADM-141 TALD, AGM-84D/H, AWW-13 Data Link Pod and AGM-65E/F Maverick.

The AGM-65D/K Mavericks should not be included in the loadout as they are not US Navy weapons.

There are also weapons that should not be used from the weapons bay. Notably, the Mk-20 Rockeye as the pop out fins of the Mk-7 dispenser will impact the weapons bay doors. The Rockeye should only be used from stations 1 and 6. If added, the Mk-82 Snakeye should also only be available on stations 1 and 6 for the same reason.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Vampyre

[Tomcatter87]

What about torpedoes? I know there's a mod for it, but wouldnt it be great if the vanilla S-3 could drop torpedoes?

[Flappie]

@Vampyre Thanks for all the information. Do you have any picture or document compatible with Rule 1.16 so I can prove your point to devs?

[Silver_Dragon]

Old Post about S-3 configurations.

 

[Vampyre]

1 hour ago, Flappie said:

@Vampyre Thanks for all the information. Do you have any picture or document compatible with Rule 1.16 so I can prove your point to devs?

Unfortunately, I currently do not have access to any S-3B manuals and haven't even touched one since 2006. The operation and timing of the weapons bay doors would be located in the one of the principals of operations manuals, the relevant maintenance manual or, if you are lucky, the NATOPS manual. The outside switch for getting the doors to the load position was located just aft of the entrance hatch under a hinged door. There was a toggle switch for if you had power and a socket for a speed handle if you didn't. The outside switch was a safety feature to keep people from being crushed between the weapons bay doors and the engine when loading the weapons.

  As for the ordnance loading, I was rated as an Airframer and I know what I know because I was a QAR and was assigned as a load team member for weapons dets before my QA days. I had a tendency ask a lot of questions to our AO's. I liked to know the how and why.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Vampyre

[Northstar98]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:52 PM, Flappie said:

@Vampyre Thanks for all the information. Do you have any picture or document compatible with Rule 1.16 so I can prove your point to devs?

Before I start I'd like to point out that in DCS, "S-3B" and "S-3B Tanker" represent 2 different versions of the S-3B:

The former represents an S-3B before the ASW deconfiguration program (which began in 1998, supposedly completed between 1999 and 2000) and the S-3B tanker represents one that is post ASW deconfiguration program (i.e. ~1999/2000 - 2007) - MAD boom removed, 44 of the 60 sonobuoy chutes blanked over, sonobuoy reference system antennas deleted).

For some of the weapons here's a shot of an S-3B with an ADM-141A TALD (these go on BRU-42 ejector racks, on the wing stations, but I'm not sure whether it can carry a total of 2, 4 or 6).

Here's an S-3B with an AWW-13 data link pod and an AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER (note how this one is post ASW deconfiguration program - no MAD boom, only 16 remaining sonobuoy chutes, no sonobuoy reference antennas):

Here's another showing the AGM-84H/K:

 

Here's an S-3B loaded with what looks like an AN/AWW-13 data link pod and an A/A42R-1 Air Refueling Store:

 

The LAU-10 should also be able to go on a BRU-42 (with at least 2 LAU-10s per station):

 

Here's a shot of an S-3B with AN/AAQ-25 LANTIRN and an air refueling store:

 

Here's one with an AGM-65F (as Vampyre said above the AGM-65D and K are not USN weapons - everything I find online only mentions the AGM-65E and F):

 

For the AGM-84 Harpoon, this states the following:

Quote

The S-3B could use any of the AGM-84’s in the Navy’s arsenal by the time of its introduction. The first of these was the Block 1B introduced in 1982, which had improved radar guidance allowing it to fly at lower altitudes. The subsequent 1C entered service in 1984 and incorporated a denser fuel, which increased its range by five nautical miles out to 80 nmi when launched from sea level, and added an alternate pop-up attack mode. The 1D entered service in 1992, with the lengthened missile possessing a range of 150 nmi and re-engagement capability, which allowed the missile to circle back to its target if it was deceived by chaff or electronic countermeasures on its first pass.

In case anyone is unfamiliar the AGM-84C is the Harpoon Block 1B and the AGM-84D is the Harpoon Block 1C. The AGM-84F is the Harpoon Block 1D. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but the AGM-84F might've been cancelled according to this. EDIT: The only Harpoon the S-3B in DCS has available is the AGM-84A Harpoon Block 1 - the -84C has the same range but flies lower (though not sure what altitude) and doesn't perform a pop-up terminal manoeuvre.

 

One other thing to maybe note is that the AGM-65E/F, AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER (+ AN/AWW-13 data link pod) and possibly also the AGM-84E SLAM (I did find this photo of a training SLAM loaded, but looks to be a display) came as part of the Maverick Plus upgrade in the early 2000s, meaning it would probably be more accurate for them to be on the S-3B Tanker and not the regular S-3B (though the problem there is that buddy stores aren't properly implemented).

 

On 11/17/2023 at 8:09 AM, Tomcatter87 said:

What about torpedoes? I know there's a mod for it, but wouldnt it be great if the vanilla S-3 could drop torpedoes?

While it would be good (as well as mines and sonobuoys), none of these are weapons DCS supports - the torpedoes it has available are exclusively for ASW (right now only anti-surface, WWI-style, gyro-angle torpedoes are modelled, mines and sonobuoys definitely aren't), it doesn't really make sense adding them until DCS actually supports them.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Northstar98
grammar

[Silver_Dragon]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

While it would be good (as well as mines and sonobuoys), none of these are weapons DCS supports - the torpedoes it has available are exclusively for ASW (right now only anti-surface, WWI-style, gyro-angle torpedoes are modelled, mines and sonobuoys definitely aren't), it doesn't really make sense adding them until DCS actually supports them.

Over paper... ED has destructor 3d models no implemented (Mk 36 Destructor and  Mk63 KickStrike) on the to do list on the F/A-18C. Stingray torpedoes has on develop by RAZBAM and  SA has a exUsNavy cold war submarine (Argentine), and others UK and Argentine submarines has on progress.

Over NATOPS manual, has some available.
https://www.flight-manuals-online.com/product/lockheed-s-3-viking/
https://www.aircraft-reports.com/lockheed-s-3b-aircraft-weapon-system-manual/

Edited December 3, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[Northstar98]

31 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Over paper... ED has destructor 3d models no implemented (Mk 36 Destructor and  Mk63 KickStrike) on the to do list on the F/A-18C.

Both the Mk 40 Destructor and Mk 63 Quickstrike were removed from the roadmap some years ago, so I'll believe it when I see it.

32 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Stingray torpedoes has on develop by RAZBAM

Except their Mk 46 torpedo also behaves like a WWI-style straight runner and can only be used against surfaced submarines (IRL the torpedo is exclusively for submerged targets).

33 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

SA has a exUsNavy cold war submarine (Argentine), and others UK and Argentine submarines has on progress.

We need far more than just submarine units to model ASW properly, but this is quickly going to derail the thread. Suffice to say I would be fine if the models existed and they could be loaded and dropped even if they didn't actually do anything for the time being, but it kinda calls into question the point if the modelling of ASW remains the way it is.

[Silver_Dragon]

4 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Both the Mk 40 Destructor and Mk 63 Quickstrike were removed from the roadmap some years ago, so I'll believe it when I see it.

The 3D models has no be removed from DCS World directories, with other submarine (russian) weapons, and has been updates on last updates... has only a matter of time.

About mine funcinality, has only a bomb dropped on a zone. the "easy mode" has put a detection explosive zone and assign a % to detonate vs distance... if dont like implement a sonar engine. The mines has many clues about ED movements on that patch (land environment), surely first coming very "arcade" before a realistic implementation (or not).

Edited December 3, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[Flappie]

@Vampyre I've just found some footage showing the bomb bay doors limitation.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Flappie

[Vampyre]

Nice find. 

[Flappie]

I've just reported the weapons bay doors animation issues and the misplaced Rockeye bombs.

I'll wait a bit before asking for missing weapons, because this new unit is still WIP. If you don't see anything move, just ping me.

[Vampyre]

12 hours ago, Flappie said:

I've just reported the weapons bay doors animation issues and the misplaced Rockeye bombs.

I'll wait a bit before asking for missing weapons, because this new unit is still WIP. If you don't see anything move, just ping me.

Will do.