FCR detection range

[Hobel]

The basic rules are clear, stationary 6km, movement 8km. 

But I am still asking whether there are exceptions for stationary targets, especially for radar vehicles, some of which are very large with an antenna that rotates 

Good example of this vehicle here and this is still one of the smallest.

Possible?  Who knows?

 

[poochies]

now waiting for RFi and jamming capabilities.....

[SloppyDog]

17 hours ago, Hobel said:

The basic rules are clear, stationary 6km, movement 8km. 

But I am still asking whether there are exceptions for stationary targets, especially for radar vehicles, some of which are very large with an antenna that rotates 

Good example of this vehicle here and this is still one of the smallest.

Possible?  Who knows?

 

I believe that wouldn't be the function of the FCR, as radars usually are tuned to detect their own emissions. 

We've already have the ASE that gives out radar emitters general bearing. The RFI would allow for a better bearing estimation and the system would/can slave the sensors to the general area of the radar emission, including the FCR:

 

Official Lockheed-Martin brochure says that the RFI can detect threats beyond the normal Apache's sensor detection ranges, but don't say how much beyond it is.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/electronic-warfare/APR-48B-brochure.pdf

 

 

[Astralnut]

Hello Folks;

I watched Wag's video;

I can't get the FCR to bit test or the FCR page to come up. I have the radome fit and it does give me the option to unpinned lke I did but there was no bit test after that. So my Apached does not work like the videos suggest and I do not know what is wrong.

[TheGhostOfDefi]

30 minutes ago, Astralnut said:

Hello Folks;

I watched Wag's video;

I can't get the FCR to bit test or the FCR page to come up. I have the radome fit and it does give me the option to unpinned lke I did but there was no bit test after that. So my Apached does not work like the videos suggest and I do not know what is wrong.

Its a Preview video so far on what to come. You need to wait still...

[YoYo]

Also it will be firstly in Open Beta only I suppose. Maybe December patch.

[N8AHbl4]

В 09.12.2023 в 17:18, SloppyDog сказал:

The real magic happens tough when looking at air defenses, where it can differentiate between a Shilka or a SA-6, for instance, just based on its format.

Well you see, it doesn't. FCR classifies the target as a ADU by RCS and rough shape and then the system merges it with RFI threat by azimuth. 
 

В 10.12.2023 в 01:44, Hobel сказал:

But I am still asking whether there are exceptions for stationary targets, especially for radar vehicles, some of which are very large with an antenna that rotates 

6km is a hard limit, beyond which the system doesn't process any stationary targets.  

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb N8AHbl4:

6km is a hard limit, beyond which the system doesn't process any stationary targets.  

Yeah, but the idea is that a large and fast rotating antenna breaks the "stationary" rule and could be considered as movement = 8km.   Just a wild guess, of course.

[SloppyDog]

3 hours ago, N8AHbl4 said:

Well you see, it doesn't. FCR classifies the target as a ADU by RCS and rough shape and then the system merges it with RFI threat by azimuth. 

Oh, cool! That's interesting and makes more sense. Sometimes, it's the years of Jane's talking.

[N8AHbl4]

3 часа назад, Hobel сказал:

Yeah, but the idea is that a large and fast rotating antenna breaks the "stationary" rule and could be considered as movement = 8km.   Just a wild guess, of course.

Well, moving is a target with speed >6km/h IIRC

[Hobel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb N8AHbl4:

Well, moving is a target with speed >6km/h IIRC

Good, and a radar antenna of the Sa-6 moves faster, so there is the possibility of a positive or negative approach to the apache FCR in this case. so what difference does the fcr see in a short sweep between an object traveling over 6km/h or the large radar antenna?  

[Moxica]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:26 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

 FCR isn't a magic sight that is all-seeing and all-encompassing when coupled with the AGM-114L. The same limitations we have now will still apply with the FCR as a sight - so your missiles may all go for the trucks instead of the tanks. Goes double if you only do one scan and drop down behind cover.

I understood there is some target prioritization going on..
It does not transfer to the Limas?

[Marshallman]

Ahh cannot wait for this!!
Virpil please hurry with the collective
This Sim carries me through the winter

Nimbus

[NeedzWD40]

12 hours ago, Moxica said:

I understood there is some target prioritization going on..
It does not transfer to the Limas?

The target data being sent to the missile is the same whether it's FCR, TADS, or RFHO. What the FCR does is essentially doing a scan, categorizing targets, then prioritizing what it sees and puts the most critical ones at the top of the list (thus the filtering options). The missile doesn't know (nor care) what's feeding it the data as it all comes from the aircraft's processors. This is why you can use TADS to pass the target to the missile. Same principle applies to RFHO.

[TheGhostOfDefi]

39 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

The target data being sent to the missile is the same whether it's FCR, TADS, or RFHO. What the FCR does is essentially doing a scan, categorizing targets, then prioritizing what it sees and puts the most critical ones at the top of the list (thus the filtering options). The missile doesn't know (nor care) what's feeding it the data as it all comes from the aircraft's processors. This is why you can use TADS to pass the target to the missile. Same principle applies to RFHO.

Since you mentioned RFHO. Is there a quick explanation on how this works since you cant attack targets from the map. So what does that mode do on top of sending a "Over there"? Just curious.

[NeedzWD40]

Just now, TheGhostOfDefi said:

Since you mentioned RFHO. Is there a quick explanation on how this works since you cant attack targets from the map. So what does that mode do on top of sending a "Over there"? Just curious.

It basically allows one aircraft with an FCR to act as the lone sight for an entire flight of aircraft. They do a scan, preferably with the targets separated by PFZs, then send the targets to flight members. The flight members can then engage as if they were using an FCR themselves, even if they aren't equipped with one. This allows only one flight member to expose themselves while the remainder would remain under cover (and further away, right out to the 8km ballistic limit and beyond).

[TheGhostOfDefi]

1 hour ago, NeedzWD40 said:

It basically allows one aircraft with an FCR to act as the lone sight for an entire flight of aircraft. They do a scan, preferably with the targets separated by PFZs, then send the targets to flight members. The flight members can then engage as if they were using an FCR themselves, even if they aren't equipped with one. This allows only one flight member to expose themselves while the remainder would remain under cover (and further away, right out to the 8km ballistic limit and beyond).

Yeah thank you but i wanted to go deeper into the Topic. I know about this so far but i ask myself how does that work? Is it especially relying on the GPS so that can calculate the vectors for the missile of #2 due to the knowleghe of the positon of #1 and from #1 to TGT? 

Ah and is the FCR able to put out 16 Targets for each flight member (using PFZ for example) or 16 in generall for all members together?

[NeedzWD40]

2 minutes ago, TheGhostOfDefi said:

Yeah thank you but i wanted to go deeper into the Topic. I know about this so far but i ask myself how does that work? Is it especially relying on the GPS so that can calculate the vectors for the missile of #2 due to the knowleghe of the positon of #1 and from #1 to TGT? 

Ah and is the FCR able to put out 16 Targets for each flight member (using PFZ for example) or 16 in generall for all members together?

No GPS is involved. I can only speculate but it's likely along the lines of relative position in localized coordinates. ie FCR flight lead is 4km north, 2km east, 50m higher; target is 5km north, 2km east, and -150m lower relative to them. The ownship can then calculate where the target is relative to themselves. Other data is passed like velocity, etc. to the missile so it knows where to look.

The maximum is 256 targets, the prioritization is just for the 16 most important targets. You should be able to pass others but my memory is rusty on that.

[shagrat]

Am 11.12.2023 um 14:52 schrieb Hobel:

Yeah, but the idea is that a large and fast rotating antenna breaks the "stationary" rule and could be considered as movement = 8km.   Just a wild guess, of course.

The limit comes from the computed targets, not the radar itself. It doesn't matter how big a radar dish is rotating on top of the chassis.

The targeting computer will identify up to 256 targets, 16 are prioritized in the engagement range (that is 6km for stationary, or 8km if the computer classified it as moving).

If the targeting computer is capable of identifying and distinguishing AA, tracked or wheeled MBT/IFV/APC, I guess it will recognize a stationary SA-6 radar as a "stationary SA-6"... that's because the AH-64D is an armed recon and attack helicopter designed to support ground forces against armor, not a dedicated SEAD/DEAD platform.

[Hobel]

I am aware of this.   I am not interested in special sead/dead skills.   It's simply about the fact that, as far as we know, radar can detect moving objects at 8km. 

Zitat

8km if the computer classified it as moving).

And  a radar dish that rotates quickly can fulfill exactly these parameters, as I said a positive or negative approximation that fulfills these thresholds is given here.  

 

 Therefore, if the radar is unable to detect a sa6 in such a situation, it is classified as unknown.  Perhaps there are also stored limits for this in real life so that the fcr can still classify the vehicle correctly

vor einer Stunde schrieb shagrat:

The limit comes from the computed targets, not the radar itself. It doesn't matter how big a radar dish is rotating on top of the chassis.

 Exactly the limit comes from the computer and a large radar antenna theoretically fulfills those limits for moving targets.

As I said, these are assumptions based on what we already know. 

[shagrat]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Hobel:

Exactly the limit comes from the computer and a large radar antenna theoretically fulfills those limits for moving targets.

Not really, as the targeting computer is capable of identifying individual differences between tracked and wheeled armor, can identify Anti-Air as primary threats, etc. and sure as capable of identifying the "moving thingy" is a radar dish of a stationary SAM and not(!) a moving target.

Edited December 13, 2023 by shagrat

[Hobel]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb shagrat:

Not really, as the targeting computer is capable of identifying individual differences between tracked and wheeled armor, can identify Anti-Air as primary threats, etc. and sure as capable of identifying the "moving thingy" is a radar dish of a stationary SAM and not(!) a moving target.

 

That is the question, if the reason for 6km limitation for stationary targets is the resolution, the FCR will rather recognize a moving object than being able to classify the whole Thing over this distance = unknown moving object.

If you get closer than 6km, the probability of a reliable classification increases and the FCR recognizes aaa.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Hobel

[shagrat]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Hobel:

That is the question, if the reason for 6km limitation for stationary targets is the resolution, the FCR will rather recognize a moving object than being able to classify the whole Thing over this distance = unknown moving object.

 

You can see it identifying and prioritizing Anti-Air, tracked and wheeled armor on the whole screen, already, in Wags' FCR videos. It can classify those just fine and prioritize them.

[Hobel]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb shagrat:

You can see it identifying and prioritizing Anti-Air, tracked and wheeled armor on the whole screen, already, in Wags' FCR videos. It can classify those just fine and prioritize them.

Eh yes, within 6km.
I am making assumptions beyond 6km and that the radar does not show stationary targets because the resolution may not be high enough to reliably detect targets beyond that, let alone classify them.

Zitat

the FCR will rather recognize a moving object than being able to classify the whole Thing over this (EDIT: over 6km)distance = unknown moving object.

 

[NeedzWD40]

3 hours ago, Hobel said:

That is the question, if the reason for 6km limitation for stationary targets is the resolution, the FCR will rather recognize a moving object than being able to classify the whole Thing over this distance = unknown moving object.

If you get closer than 6km, the probability of a reliable classification increases and the FCR recognizes aaa.

Within the game, I doubt we'll be contending with these limitations. IRL my speculation would be that certain characteristics like a radar dish tend to alter the reflective properties at distance, so if it can be found via moving and returns a "sparkle" that it might classify that as an ADA unit. Same way the F-15E's radar scintillation works is my guess. Naturally, this means something like a ZSU-23-4 with the radar stowed or a ZSU-57-2 would likely not be identified as ADA, so reliability would be iffy. It also means it probably deals with a lot of false positives. Thus why it's probably better to use the FCR to find points of interest and slave the TADS for actual ID and engagement purposes.

Within DCS this could probably be simulated by a simple random misidentification that slowly reduces over distance. Probably make a lot of people upset, though.