Take off / Taxi straight line stability

[Phantom_Mark]

I just want to preface this that I have been flying DCS since day one, so not likely to be a user error I "think".

A few updates ago now things started to feel different but I kept quiet as I guessed it was just a new "feature" or something, but in the past deviation on take off was something that barely featured at all, lateral / yaw stability from side winds was never really something that hit you.

Now with all aircraft every take off feels like a disaster / micromanagement waiting to happen, with a lot of rudder and corrections above 80kn I can take off pretty straight but the levels of input are way beyond realistic or expected, I have of course tested with zero winds, and of course checked my input devices for drift etc, but still just the same ??

Is it me ? or do other have a battle at every take off with every aircraft now (and I have a lot) ???  everything feels like a P51 with no take off assistance basically

Not a moan btw, just seeking clarification.

[razo+r]

I didn't really feel any difference. My aircraft run pretty much straight down the runway without the need for a lot of correction.

Perhaps you could provide a video or even better, a short track so we can see a bit more?

[Phantom_Mark]

I will see about getting some grabs...........so if nobody else feels this maybe there is a problem elsewhere then, is all I can conclude - swerving off the runway trying to take off or taxi has become a frustrating habit lately for me tho.

 

[silverdevil]

5 hours ago, Phantom_Mark said:

I will see about getting some grabs...........so if nobody else feels this maybe there is a problem elsewhere then, is all I can conclude - swerving off the runway trying to take off or taxi has become a frustrating habit lately for me tho.

 

save a track beginning at the start of the roll. we should be able to see what is going on.

[Hiob]

Well some aircraft are more bitchy than others, but generally take-offs are ok…. unless I forget to adjust the NWS gain or turn it off. 

Perhaps you lost a controls binding and your NWS is still engaged unintentionally? (unlikely of course when it happens in all aircraft)

[TheFreshPrince]

It feels a bit like DCS aircraft don't have enough friction and inertia on the ground. That makes them susceptible to winds, but also they can roll and steer too fast, unlike in real life footage where you can see how heavy and hard to maneuver the jet is and how it bounces while taxiing. In DCS it feels too light and without any ground feedback, a bit like skating on ice. When taking off with a crosswind, it pushes you to the side very easily and the jet steers too much.

But there was a topic on this recently, that lead to nothing:

 

[Phantom_Mark]

 

f16trg.trkJust a quick take off and a quick mess around and a landing, I let the plane do its own thing for a moment towards the end of the runway, just to show how badly it seems to pull if you don't micro manage the rudder. Just skip the middle of the trk whilst I shoot some stuff

[silverdevil]

4 hours ago, Phantom_Mark said:

Just a quick take off and a quick mess around and a landing, I let the plane do its own thing for a moment towards the end of the runway, just to show how badly it seems to pull if you don't micro manage the rudder. Just skip the middle of the trk whilst I shoot some stuff

i did not get to the end landing because the track failed and the plane crashed into the trees. but on the take off i saw you kept AWS on for the entire runway. way above the speed it should be off. 

can you do another track but just take off and come immediately back to land?

Edited December 29, 2023 by silverdevil

[Phantom_Mark]

Sure thing mate np, ty.

f16trg.trkJust a quick take off and a quick mess around and a landing, I let the plane do its own thing for a moment towards the end of the runway, just to show how badly it seems to pull if you don't micro manage the rudder. Just skip the middle of the trk whilst I shoot some stuff

[razo+r]

1 hour ago, Phantom_Mark said:

Sure thing mate np, ty.

f16trg.trkJust a quick take off and a quick mess around and a landing, I let the plane do its own thing for a moment towards the end of the runway, just to show how badly it seems to pull if you don't micro manage the rudder. Just skip the middle of the trk whilst I shoot some stuff

You should really just place your aircraft on final in the mission editor and attach that track. I am not interested to see you messing around, and fast forwarding is increasing the chance that the track breaks. Besides, there is so much junk in that mission, I'm getting astonishing 6 FPS while watching you.

So, please, just a simple track with your aircraft on final on the caucasus map and we're happy.

BUT, from what I can see, you would save yourself a ton of inputs if you just turned off your NWS at an appropriate speed, like for example 60 knots or less. You are wayyyy overcorrecting at high speeds with the NWS on on takeoff.

And I didn't manage to watch your landing because I can't fast forward with this terrible performance.

[silverdevil]

1 hour ago, razo+r said:

I'm getting astonishing 6 FPS while watching you.

yes my end too. it was difficult to watch. i was getting a bit nauseous lol.

1 hour ago, razo+r said:

if you just turned off your NWS at an appropriate speed, like for example 60 knots or less. You are wayyyy overcorrecting at high speeds with the NWS on on takeoff.

not sure if this is even SOP but on take off, since the viper gets going so quick, i turn off NWS before rolling. or put INS menu up on the DED. it will show you ground speed.

[Phantom_Mark]

2 very different outcomes....

Clean missions, clean aircraft on the runway, 0 wind etc, take off, then drop straight into the pattern and land again.

F15E, I assume NWS turns off automatically on that aircraft as all I seem able to do is cycle between normal and hi NWS,  seemed to honestly go ok ?

F16, following the advice above I quickly dropped the NWS - def felt better on take off but landing still felt weird multiple times, to the point I actually double check at the end NWS was still disabled as I tried to leave the active.

So 2 thoughts here........previously I have never struggled, did ground handling change at some point the last few months maybe ?? maybe being punished for old habits I have not needed to correct before ??

F16 feels very unstable compared to the F15, which is somewhat expected, but I would think the F16 would have some natural positive toe angle in the main gear to help stabilise it , it surely isn't this wild in RL

As I never usually run with 0 wind , adding that wind surely only exaggerates all the above ??

f15_clean.trk

f16_clean.trk

[razo+r]

8 minutes ago, Phantom_Mark said:

2 very different outcomes....

Clean missions, clean aircraft on the runway, 0 wind etc, take off, then drop straight into the pattern and land again.

F15E, I assume NWS turns off automatically on that aircraft as all I seem able to do is cycle between normal and hi NWS,  seemed to honestly go ok ?

F-15E has the NWS always on except when you press and hold the paddle switch. But your takeoff and landing looked alright when it comes to staying centerline.

8 minutes ago, Phantom_Mark said:

F16, following the advice above I quickly dropped the NWS - def felt better on take off but landing still felt weird multiple times, to the point I actually double check at the end NWS was still disabled as I tried to leave the active.

The takeoff with the F-16 looked good, and your landing was alright too. It seems to me that the F-16 in DCS is rather on the unstable side when it comes to the rollout, perhaps even a tad too unstable if you look at HUD footage of landing F-16s, but it has been that way since it came out, or at least for as long as I can remember.

Tip: If you want to check if your NWS is on or off, just look at the status light, to the right of the HUD. In missions close to sunrise/sunset, DCS sets the brightness very low, so it's hard to spot. In that case just turn up the brightness and it'll be easy to check.

8 minutes ago, Phantom_Mark said:

So 2 thoughts here........previously I have never struggled, did ground handling change at some point the last few months maybe ?? maybe being punished for old habits I have not needed to correct before ??

I am not aware of any changes nor do I feel like any changes happened. 

 

[Phantom_Mark]

Maybe the fact I run with the wind etc on just exaggerates the above ......

Thx for the clarification, jack of all aircraft here and master of none, I do have at least a couple thousand hours on the F18 tho, and that did feel like it changed in ground handling stability, similar story with the A10C.

I have never made a specific test for the above, so might try those tests now with the F18 and A10C, my most familiar rides, only did the F15 and F16 as I have been flying those the most recently.

TY

 

[rob10]

28 minutes ago, Phantom_Mark said:

I have never made a specific test for the above, so might try those tests now with the F18 and A10C, my most familiar rides, only did the F15 and F16 as I have been flying those the most recently

Just remember with the 18 you don't turn off NWS on takeoff and NWS should engage with WOW on landing (since you've now trained your brain to the F-16 way of doing things )

[Phantom_Mark]

ty