Engaging multiple targets simultaneously

[EtherealN]

This may be a horribly stupid question, but I thought I'd just check if there is a real procedure similar to it.

 

Back in the days I played the old Microprose (I think it was) Werewolf vs Comanche games like a complete nutter, and in there I developed a tactic where I would launch on a distant target, and while the missile is in flight launch a second missile. When the first hits the target I would quickly slew the seeker over to a second, nearby target, and thereby guide that second missile mid-flight towards the new target.

 

That series of games were obviously pretty much 100% arcade (the Ka-50 had RWR and Igla in it tho! :D ) so I definitely realize that it might very well be just sheer stupidity in a real setting. None-the-less I have tried it a few times, usually when I've launched on a target only to have my wingman land a kill on it two seconds later. I've not successfully steered it to a new target though.

 

Is there a procedure (with manual overrides or not) that would allow attacks like that, even if they're not something that real pilots would be doing? I reckon it should be similar to when people launch Vikhrs slightly offset against enemy helos to reduce their warning, and then slew the laser over the target mid-flight.

 

Or am I just way too nostalgic about an old arcade title? :P

[ARM505]

No. With the Vikhr in LOMAC it could be done, but not with the realistic Vikhr in BS (it can't be done with the real missile either - I forget the technicalities, but something about the projected laser guidance 'grid' changing size automatically as the missile proceeds downrange, which corrects the dispersion problem of a beam rider. This system is not suited to guiding multiple missiles.)

[Boberro]

In BS it can't be done - in LOMAC yes cos there Shkval and Vikhrs were arcade. In real it is also not available due of laser grid IIRC.

 

So unrealistic, but hollywood Vikhrs spamming era ended with LOMAC.

[EtherealN]

Awh, ah well, it's interesting to know why the limitation exists anyways. Thanks guys. :)

[miguez]

I am somewhat ignorant on the laser grid issue mentioned, but wouldn't it be impossible for the simple fact that the Vikhr has to ride the laser beam to the target so, until that missile hits, you cannot move the laser away from the target and on to another target?

[EtherealN]

The grid issue aside, the missile rides the beam and will always attempt to stay within the beam. Theoretically for the one missile you would be able to switch target because the laser would be calibrated for that missile and as you move it the missile will be adjusting to stay inside.

 

If it was impossible to move the laser and still guide the missile it would be impossible to attack a moving target or while you yourself is moving.

 

The problem in multiple missiles arrives in how the laser calibrates for the distance of the missile - the second missile would be in a distance that the laser is calibrated for and thus would not have effective guidance.

 

EDIT: also, you say "until that missile hits", the scenario I was investigating to begin with was one where the missile hits and I then move the laser to adjust a second missile.

[nemises]

Also, I'm not sure you can overide the launch cool down...so unless you launch in "Long" mode (ie. 2 Vhikrs) , I'm not sure you could cook another one off in time.

 

Having said that, you can cook off 12 Vhikrs at 12 targets in less that 2 minutes , so thats not too bad! ... probably even beats the LOAL kill box in the 64D ! ;)

[Sharkster64]

I am somewhat ignorant on the laser grid issue mentioned, but wouldn't it be impossible for the simple fact that the Vikhr has to ride the laser beam to the target so, until that missile hits, you cannot move the laser away from the target and on to another target?

Yes its possible to move the beam to another target with missile in flight. I've done it numerous times when flying along side AI chopper. Alot of the times my wing man will shoot at a target that I already have lined up. I'll see my target explode just after I launch my missile. So I just readjust my laser on to another target and the missile follows the laser right to the new target. Usually the targets are pretty close together so I can lock on the new target pretty quick. As for launching another missile, the Shark will not allow you to do that while a missile is in flight unless you have it set to long mode. But in this case they fire almost simultaneously, so it is impossible to move the laser to another target in time after the first missile strikes.

[miguez]

Right, I see I was probably confused, as I thought the original poster was asking the questions with the intent of having a sort of "fire and forget" system, meaning laser a target, fire a missile, move the laser to another target, fire a missile at that target, move the laser to a third target, fire a third missile, etc., meaning attack multiple targets with multiple missiles.

 

I do understand you can move the laser with the missile in flight, I have done it several times too, but I thought the original poster meant the "fire-and-forget" approach.

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

That's what I thought the OP wanted as well. Not possible with that particular guidance method. Now if you had laser hellfire ... ;)

(You can have multiple hellfires in flight, spaced a few seconds apart, and so long as the targets are in the same general vicinity -or- the hellfire knows where you'll be having it look at ... )

[Jigsaw]

^^^^

(You can have multiple hellfires in flight, spaced a few seconds apart,

 

Yeah, I loved to do that with Longbow 1 and 2. Scan some targets with the radar, draw killboxes for myself and my wingman and then we would reign hellfire upon the enemies... literally. ;)

[Frederf]

I've also seen Open Falcon pilots do this with LGBs, drop 2 five seconds apart and slew from target A to target B after the first impact.

[GGTharos]

This is certainly possible if the targets are reasonably close together. The older the LGB, the harder to do this with it (and by older I mean in terms of generations) because they originally used bang-bang navigation, so their maneuvering was less then optimal for range.

 

I've also seen Open Falcon pilots do this with LGBs, drop 2 five seconds apart and slew from target A to target B after the first impact.

[EtherealN]

No, the sequence I was investigating was:

 

1) Launch Vikhr at target #1

2) Wait four seconds

3) Launch Vikhr, still pointing at target #1

4) Wait for impact of first missile

5) Slew Skhval to target #2 while missile #2 is still in flight

6) Get impact on second target

 

In the old Werewolf game I was able to get this working for more than "just" two missiles and it was a LOT of fun and went a good way to minimising the time spent unmasked. Sort of a poor-man's Fire-and-Forget in that you are still lasing actively and thus still managing the missiles, but your are decreasing the amount of time you have to do so for a multiple-target engagement.

 

Sadly, not a method that works once we've gotten to the DCS level of fidelity in weapons modeling. But even though it doesn't work, it's pretty neat to know why it doesn't work, unraveling yet another layer of detail in this simulation. :)

 

I thought the original poster was asking the questions with the intent of having a sort of "fire and forget" system, meaning laser a target, fire a missile, move the laser to another target, fire a missile at that target, move the laser to a third target, fire a third missile, etc., meaning attack multiple targets with multiple missiles.

[192nd_Erdem]

I think you could do it, considering the targets are really close, so that you won't move the laser designator around too much to cause the Vikhr to lose the laser beam. It will go wherever it points in the end, isn't it? :) Also since Vikhr is A2A capable, there shouldn't be any problems with missile keeping up with the laser beam I suppose.

 

Although, I believe Shkval locking is heavily scripted and there's no info about how the laser beam is modelled; so there may be game engine limitations about that too.

 

I really like these type of "challanges" in sims, as they show facts about how the things modelled to what extend ;)

[oritpro]

Yeah, I loved to do that with Longbow 1 and 2. Scan some targets with the radar, draw killboxes for myself and my wingman and then we would reign hellfire upon the enemies... literally. ;)

 

Yeah, I really miss that myself and it was even more fun during coop play :)

[Feuerfalke]

Yeah, I really miss that myself and it was even more fun during coop play :)

 

+1

 

That game got me into multiplaying. I hope the Apache module contains all the nice features of modern games to support sharing Helos and ingame comms.

[Boberro]

Ah now I understand the question :)

[Vortex]

No idea about the KA50.

 

I know it's been done in real life in an Apache AH Mk1, same pilot also air lifted a wounded soldier with two crew strapped to the outside of the AH Mk1 during a fire fight :helpsmilie:

 

Read "Apache" by Ed Macy :thumbup:

Edited March 31, 2009 by Vortex

[AlphaOneSix]

I know it's been done in real life in an Apache AH Mk1, same pilot also air lifted a wounded soldier with two crew strapped to the outside of the AH Mk1 during a fire fight

 

Both of these have been trained for routinely since the mid-1980's. The Apache can do what's called "rapid fire" (where multiple missiles are in the air at the same time, all following the same laser spot) and "ripple fire" (where alternating missiles follow two different codes).

 

Using rapid fire, you point the laser at one target, fire your missile, wait a few seconds, fire a second missile, wait a few seconds, fire a third missile, etc. When your first target is hit, you just slew the laser to the next target, and all of the airborne missiles will try their best to fly to the new laser spot. Obviously this works best when targets are close together and you leave enough time between missiles for them to maneuver.

 

Ripple fire is normally done with either two Apaches or one Apache and a ground laser designator. The fire control computer in the launching Apache sets up a "primary" laser code (usually the one being used in the launching aircraft) and an "alternate" laser code (usually the other aircraft or ground designator). When missiles are launched (still have to pull the trigger for each individual missile), the first one will follow the primary code, and the second one will follow the alternate code. Rapid fire can be combined in this mode, and as missiles are launched, they will continue to alternate between primary and alternate codes.

 

Finally, we used to train fairly regularly to use the Apache as an emergency rescue platform (for me, this was during the early-1990's). I never heard of it being used in combat, mostly because the Apaches always had Black Hawks nearby to do rescue work, but there was no doubt by the crews that it could be done, as our pals the Brits have definitively proved. ;)

[miguez]

Hey AlphaOneSix,

 

I might be a little lost in the exchanges in this thread, so I'll ask. Can rapid fire, as you described it, be achieved in DCS: BS?

 

Also, I don't seem to understand why ripple fire would be used?

 

Finally, if I understand the gist of your post, every laser used in the field of combat, or at least the laser in the Apache and the Ka-50, carry a special code. Is this so that it would be harder to jam it, or so that the missile would not be confused if it "saw" another laser nearby, or both?

 

Thanks,

[GGTharos]

No, it cannot be achieved by the Black Shark.

Rapid fire takes advantage of the fact that each hellfire has a seeker scanning for the laser spot; when you re-designate the missile's seeker finds that spot and homes in on it.

 

The Vikhr has sensors in the rear that cause it to fly within a beam of specific parameters. The beam is narrowed as the missile travels towards its target to keep the beam radius constant around the missile.

 

That means if you launch a Vikhr after the first one, it will be launched into a beam that is too narrow for it to fly in (because the autopilot and sensors are calibrated for a laser grid of a specific size), and it will fail. By lawn-darting.

 

The laser code is used primarily for making certain that your hellfires don't start tracking your buddy's targets. It is its own ECCM against -some- methods of jamming laser seekers, but it's not exactly great ECCM.

[AlphaOneSix]

Also, I don't seem to understand why ripple fire would be used?

 

GG answered your other questions rather well, so I'll stick with this one. Probably the ideal situation for ripple fire is to have two separate ground teams with laser designators (on two separate codes) lasing targets in an engagement area, with the Apache launching Hellfires in LOAL (lock on after launch) mode so that it can remain hidden behind cover. The first missile would track the first laser spot, the second missile would track the second laser spot. After the first missile hits, the first designator can move to a new target, and then Apache can fire the third missile, which would lock on to the spot of the first designator, then the fourth missile would be back to the second designator, etc. What you end up with is two missiles (or more) alternating laser codes so that they would track two different lasers at a time. You could also do this with one ground team and one Apache (using it's own laser) or even two Apache's using their lasers (if one Apache is out of missiles or can't launch for some reason, but the laser works).

 

Rapid fire is just putting a bunch of missiles in the air at the same time on the same code, and moving the laser from target to target as they are hit.

 

It should be noted that I never saw ripple fire done in real life or even in training (not saying it didn't happen, but it would have been rare). In the vast majority of Hellfire shots, one missile is fired at a time using a single laser code. In a flight of aircraft, each aircraft would use its own code so as not to confuse their buddy's missiles (as GG noted).

[miguez]

Perfect explanation GG and A16, thanks guys.

[Slayer]

No, it cannot be achieved by the Black Shark.

Rapid fire takes advantage of the fact that each hellfire has a seeker scanning for the laser spot; when you re-designate the missile's seeker finds that spot and homes in on it.

 

The Vikhr has sensors in the rear that cause it to fly within a beam of specific parameters. The beam is narrowed as the missile travels towards its target to keep the beam radius constant around the missile.

 

That means if you launch a Vikhr after the first one, it will be launched into a beam that is too narrow for it to fly in (because the autopilot and sensors are calibrated for a laser grid of a specific size), and it will fail. By lawn-darting.

 

The laser code is used primarily for making certain that your hellfires don't start tracking your buddy's targets. It is its own ECCM against -some- methods of jamming laser seekers, but it's not exactly great ECCM.

 

I don't get this either , a lot of times I set it to fire 2 vikhr's at once when I'm going up against Abrams tanks.. they both fire at the same time and both hit...I've also noticed that if you are locked on a target and for instance if your wingmans missile impacts and kills the target before yours you can redirect the missile onto another target by pressing and holding the lock button and slewing the shkval onto a different target.

 

I also do this when I target manpads and support vehicles with the gun. Lock, fire a burst, press and hold the lock and slew to the next target, release the lock and it grabs the new target. Fire another burst before the first burst hits the first target, instead of waiting for the lock to automatically break when you get a target kill.

 

Normally when it's locked you can't do this once its locked you can't slew until the target is dead.

 

So am I improperly using this or does it actually work this way in the real thing?