SEAD flights only engage one target at a time.

[Capn kamikaze]

This is a long standing issue, I have a flight of 4 Su-24's each armed with 2 Kh-31P's attacking an SA-11 group that has a CP, SR and six launchers, the launchers are spread over an area of a couple of square miles, they're all pointing generally in the direction of the incoming flight.

The flight will only launch a single missile, rather than sorting all the SA-11 systems, and firing on multiple targets, even the lead won't fire its second missile at an alternate launcher, there's basically no point in those wingmen even being there.

I've tried this multiple ways, either telling the flight to engage in zone, specifically targeting the individual units as a "start enroute task", but they basically do nothing other than the lead firing on the SR.

If I jump in and fly something like the F/A-18 or F-16 and do the same thing with them, I see the SR and multiple launchers on the RWR, and can fire off missiles at different threats, but the AI don't do so.

[Capn kamikaze]

The only way I can get them to all fire in a single pass at all targets is to have them as individual flights of 1, using the follow command to make them look like a single flight, stop following, then independently attack specific units, then re-follow.

It shouldn't be this difficult...

[Flappie]

I'm able to reproduce the behaviour you described. Do you know if it only happens with this aircraft and this weapon?

Kh-31P_4_launchers.trk Kh-31P_one_launcher.trk

Edited January 14 by Flappie

[Flappie]

Same behaviour with the F-16C indeed.

AGM-88_4_launchers.trk

[Flappie]

As a workaround, you can use the Attack Group order.

OK_CAS_AGM-88_4_launchers.trk

[Capn kamikaze]

Glad to see it's not one of those problems specific to me lol.

I'll try that work around

[Exorcet]

Something to point out regarding this. The one missile at a time behavior may be exactly what you want in SEAD. It's not obvious in DCS because there is no SEAD (Suppression). In DCS it's mostly DEAD because SAM's don't turn off and will guide missiles ahead of all else until they are destroyed.

The solution we need is to add more options to SEAD task to control how weapons are released. If SAM's get improved down the line and shut down when threatened with missiles you will want to use one at a time to keep them off for longer so your strike planes can get through.

The AI also needs to be able to use different tactics against different launchers. Even when trying to suppress, one missile is not very good against SAM's with ARM intercept capability. In that case the AI needs to have an option overwhelm a SAM, or at least fire more than one missile to increase the chance that the SAM turns off radar.

[Chenstrap]

 

I am a week or 2 late but I have been doing a lot of tinkering with SEAD flights and SAMs and want to give my 2 cents on their behavior. That said I generally want to echo @Exorcet in that the current behavior is more realistic then what is being proposed.

To expand on SEAD tactics a bit, generally SEAD flights will only want to shoot at 2 targets: Search radars and tracking radars, so things like Early Warning Radars and communication/C2 vans arent engaged by these sorts of weapons. The purpose of a SEAD flight is to suppress air defenses to allow time for strikers to ingress, bomb targets, and get out. Because they carry a small number of anti radiation missiles, they generally cant afford to shoot multiple missiles at one battery since they often need to keep a window open for 10+ minutes against multiple potential threats. An SA-11 battery with 4 TELs and a snowdrift STR isnt 5 threats; its 1 threat, because the SA-11 TELs are reliant on the Snow Drift SR to search for targets.

As for the behavior in DCS, right now aircraft firing anti radiation missiles (This goes for flights with task SEAD or any A/G task where you give them ARMs) only shoot at active radars that the aircraft have detected on RWR. IE if you put a radar unit in the mission but have its radar off (AI off or emission off triggers do this), aircraft wont shoot at it because it is not actively emitting. Another example of this is the SA3. The Flat Face search radar is picked up on RWR further out than the Low Blow tracking radar (This is true for Player and AI flights). As such AI SEAD flights will engage the search radar from max range, but they will only engage the tracking radar from ~15 miles out because that is when the radar is picked up on RWR. 

This explains whats happening with the SA-11 in the given example from @Capn kamikaze . The SA-11 Fire Dome TEL does have onboard radar, but its a fire control/tracking radar ONLY, it doesn't do search which is the job of the Snow Drift. SEAD aircraft wont shoot at the TEL unless has locked onto a target and launched a missile because thats the only time the radar is emitting. However thats unlikely to happen seeing as HARMs have a longer range then the SAM does and by the time the SA-11 can shoot a missile the Snow Drift SR has already eaten a HARM and the TELs never had a target to engage.

@Flappie if you have already pushed a ticket regarding this thread I ask you amend to it as the behavior being asked for by Kamikaze is less desirable then the current behavior by the AI SEAD flights. With that said, there ARE features for AI SEAD flights that need to be added in. Namely, AI SEAD aircraft currently can not perform pre briefed HARM shots (Players can do this already). As I described above they will only shoot at actively emitting radars. This post has already gotten quite long, but if you like I can provide more details on what sort of features would be really nice for pre briefed HARM shots.

[Exorcet]

47 minutes ago, Chenstrap said:

Namely, AI SEAD aircraft currently can not perform pre briefed HARM shots (Players can do this already). As I described above they will only shoot at actively emitting radars. This post has already gotten quite long, but if you like I can provide more details on what sort of features would be really nice for pre briefed HARM shots.

That's a huge limitation yes, and something that needs to be included in the event that we do get smart SAM's.

[Flappie]

3 hours ago, Chenstrap said:

@Flappie if you have already pushed a ticket regarding this thread I ask you amend to it as the behavior being asked for by Kamikaze is less desirable then the current behavior by the AI SEAD flights.

I haven't, otherwise the thread woud bear the 'reported' tag.

[Capn kamikaze]

6 hours ago, Chenstrap said:

 

I am a week or 2 late but I have been doing a lot of tinkering with SEAD flights and SAMs and want to give my 2 cents on their behavior. That said I generally want to echo @Exorcet in that the current behavior is more realistic then what is being proposed.

To expand on SEAD tactics a bit, generally SEAD flights will only want to shoot at 2 targets: Search radars and tracking radars, so things like Early Warning Radars and communication/C2 vans arent engaged by these sorts of weapons. The purpose of a SEAD flight is to suppress air defenses to allow time for strikers to ingress, bomb targets, and get out. Because they carry a small number of anti radiation missiles, they generally cant afford to shoot multiple missiles at one battery since they often need to keep a window open for 10+ minutes against multiple potential threats. An SA-11 battery with 4 TELs and a snowdrift STR isnt 5 threats; its 1 threat, because the SA-11 TELs are reliant on the Snow Drift SR to search for targets.

As for the behavior in DCS, right now aircraft firing anti radiation missiles (This goes for flights with task SEAD or any A/G task where you give them ARMs) only shoot at active radars that the aircraft have detected on RWR. IE if you put a radar unit in the mission but have its radar off (AI off or emission off triggers do this), aircraft wont shoot at it because it is not actively emitting. Another example of this is the SA3. The Flat Face search radar is picked up on RWR further out than the Low Blow tracking radar (This is true for Player and AI flights). As such AI SEAD flights will engage the search radar from max range, but they will only engage the tracking radar from ~15 miles out because that is when the radar is picked up on RWR. 

This explains whats happening with the SA-11 in the given example from @Capn kamikaze . The SA-11 Fire Dome TEL does have onboard radar, but its a fire control/tracking radar ONLY, it doesn't do search which is the job of the Snow Drift. SEAD aircraft wont shoot at the TEL unless has locked onto a target and launched a missile because thats the only time the radar is emitting. However thats unlikely to happen seeing as HARMs have a longer range then the SAM does and by the time the SA-11 can shoot a missile the Snow Drift SR has already eaten a HARM and the TELs never had a target to engage.

@Flappie if you have already pushed a ticket regarding this thread I ask you amend to it as the behavior being asked for by Kamikaze is less desirable then the current behavior by the AI SEAD flights. With that said, there ARE features for AI SEAD flights that need to be added in. Namely, AI SEAD aircraft currently can not perform pre briefed HARM shots (Players can do this already). As I described above they will only shoot at actively emitting radars. This post has already gotten quite long, but if you like I can provide more details on what sort of features would be really nice for pre briefed HARM shots.

This isn't about HARMS this is about the KH-31P, and these were being fired on the edges to 80% of the SA-11's range, and the TEL's are emitting.

Just because you like things as they are does not mean something isn't wrong.

[Northstar98]

On 2/5/2024 at 1:10 PM, Chenstrap said:

An SA-11 battery with 4 TELs and a snowdrift STR isnt 5 threats; its 1 threat, because the SA-11 TELs are reliant on the Snow Drift SR to search for targets. [...]

The SA-11 Fire Dome TEL does have onboard radar, but its a fire control/tracking radar ONLY, it doesn't do search which is the job of the Snow Drift.

This is false, the 9S35 on the SA-11s TELARs is capable of acquisition and has a dedicated acquisition mode:

From Ausairpower:

Quote

The 9S35 Fire Dome provides a limited search and acquisition capability, a tracking capability and CW illumination for terminal guidance of the semi-active homing SAM seekers. It incorporates an IFF interrogator, optical tracker, datalink, and is powered by the TELAR's gas turbine generator. A shared antenna is employed for two X-band transmit/receive channels. These respectively provide a pulsed mode for search and track functions, with linear chirp for compression, and a CW mode for illumination. Monopulse angle tracking is employed for jam resistance. For target tracking the antenna and feed system provide a mainlobe with 2.5° width in azimuth and 1.3° in elevation. For CW illumination the antenna and feed system provide a mainlobe with 1.4° width in azimuth and 2.65° in elevation.

Operating autonomously, the 9S35 will take 4 seconds to sweep a 120° sector, with an elevation of 6° to 7°. When cued to acquire and track, with will take 2 seconds to sweep a 10° x 7° az/elev solid angle. Average power output in pulsed tracking modes varies between 0.5 and 1 kiloWatt, with CW illumination at 2 kiloWatts. The search and monopulse angle tracking receivers are both rated at a Noise Figure of NF=10 dB. The range error is cited at 175 metres, the angular error at less than 1°. The radar can switch from standby mode to combat operation in twenty seconds.

This also applies to DCS - a single TELAR operating completely autonomously is able to search for and engage targets completely by itself, so long as those targets enter a certain sector (though with 4 TELARs, it's trivial to arrange them such that they cover 360° of azimuth).

And in general every track/fire-control radar will have secondary acquisition capability, albeit much more limited than a dedicated acquisition radar.

I am though with you on general SEAD vs DEAD as SEAD in DCS (at least natively, without resorting to triggers and scripts) is somewhat of a misnomer and only DEAD really applies - there though the OPs request of getting the AI to target multiple threat emitters simultaneously (as could easily be the case with the SA-11) is desireable.

Though maybe what we're really missing here is what @Exorcet described above: some finer control of AI doctrine/tactics and weapon release parameters, so we can control how many weapons get released at what target if otherwise unspecified by, for instance, the attack unit/group tasks. You could even break it down by the category of threat (for instance, as with C:MO's Weapons Release Authorisation settings).

Edited February 6 by Northstar98
Linked source

[buceador]

I recently (yesterday) posted a problem concerning getting AI, be it wingmen or otherwise, to perform SEAD then attack a map object or a group or whatever.  With forum help I discovered that making it a CAS mission and specifying that the AI attack the SAM group  (actually attacking specified units is more successful) first , at waypoint 1 for example and the proceed to the other tasks was usually successful.  It seems that labelling the mission SEAD causes problems.  Hope this helps.