m.2 drives...

[CL30]

I didn't realize it at the time, but I have DCS on a SATA m.2 drive from when I built my PC several years ago.  I only realized it now that it's full and I can't update DCS, and have been shopping for a new one.  I'm going to get a larger SSD for DCS, probably 2 TB, but I want an NVME. 

My question is, is it worth it to go with something like the WD Black SN850X/Samsung 990 Pro?  Or would a WD Black SN770/Samsung 980 Pro still do fine? Just don't know how much of a difference it'd make vs price.

I'm on a 9600k (4.9 OC), 32 GB RAM, and 2080Ti.  Planning a new build in a few months, but still want to play in the meantime.  Just need the room. Thanks!

Edited January 10 by CL30

[kksnowbear]

Well, for one, if your sig is correct/current, then your Z390 motherboard is not (as in cannot be) running at the speed of any of the replacement drives you cited.

Z390 boards support PCIe 3.0.  Max transfer rate there is going to be ~3500.  The drives you listed (SN850X/990 Pro, SN770/980 Pro ) are all PCIe 4.0 drives - great performers for the most part, but all of them are PCIe 4.0 drives (max transfer ~7000) and beyond the capability of your board.  So not a lot of reason to spend the extra for speed you can't use.

On Z390 boards, I usually recommend Samsung 970 EVO Plus drives.  Cost effective and performance good as/better than anything else.

BTW, SATA and NVMe are not counterparts   NVMe is a protocol (like a language), where SATA is an interface.  The counterpart to SATA is PCI Express (PCIe for short)...your motherboard has M.2 slots supporting drives that are either SATA or PCIe (see below).

Note that one of the M2 sockets ONLY runs in PCIe mode.  Also, commonly, populating M.2 slots will disable PCIe expansion slots and/or SATA ports on the board - check the manual p. 32 for specifics.

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, CL30 said:

My question is, is it worth it to go with something like the WD Black SN850X/Samsung 990 Pro?  Or would a WD Black SN770/Samsung 980 Pro still do fine? Just don't know how much of a difference it'd make vs price.

I'm on a 9600k (4.9 OC), 32 GB RAM, and 2080Ti.  Planning a new build in a few months, but still want to play in the meantime.  Just need the room. Thanks!

Z390 motherboard supports PCIe Gen3, not Gen4.
That said, there are some benefits by using a decent Gen4 NVME even with motherboards that only support Gen3, like yours (and mine).
While in such case the Gen4 drive (obviously) won't reach its capable full speeds, it will definitely run at the full speed of Gen3 - something very few Gen3 drives ever achieved.

If this a second drive, not to be used by OS and meant only for games, then there's no need to get a really fancy NVME Gen4.
In short - get the WD SN770.  It's ramless (therefore not ideal for OS drive) but it's really fast, reliable, and it's cheaper, so ideal for this purpose. 

Edited January 10 by LucShep

[CL30]

Wow, glad I posted that before buying anything. Guess I'm definitely out of touch! And yeah, the sig is current: Z390 Aorus Master. 

 

Thank you both for the education...learned some things!

 

ETA: Yes, this drive will not have the OS on it. It's only going to be a home for DCS.

Edited January 10 by CL30

[CL30]

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

 

BTW, SATA and NVMe are not counterparts   NVMe is a protocol (like a language), where SATA is an interface.  The counterpart to SATA is PCI Express (PCIe for short)...your motherboard has M.2 slots supporting drives that are either SATA or PCIe (see below).

Note that one of the M2 sockets ONLY runs in PCIe mode.  Also, commonly, populating M.2 slots will disable PCIe expansion slots and/or SATA ports on the board - check the manual p. 32 for specifics.

Yeah, I've been referencing the MoBo setup for M.2 ports and SATA ports.  I have 2x 2.5" SSDs into SATA 1 & 2 right now, so I need to figure out where the new drive will go.  Can't remember where my current M.2 is on the board either.

So, this brings up another question.  Not speaking to which slots are active/inactive at this point in relation to SSD placement... in general, will the PC still recognize moving an M.2 from one spot to another?  I'm pretty sure I put my current M.2 in slot 1 (just can't see for sure).

[kksnowbear]

21 minutes ago, CL30 said:

So, this brings up another question.  Not speaking to which slots are active/inactive at this point in relation to SSD placement... in general, will the PC still recognize moving an M.2 from one spot to another?  I'm pretty sure I put my current M.2 in slot 1 (just can't see for sure).

Generally, yes you should be fine

[LucShep]

7 hours ago, CL30 said:

Yeah, I've been referencing the MoBo setup for M.2 ports and SATA ports.  I have 2x 2.5" SSDs into SATA 1 & 2 right now, so I need to figure out where the new drive will go.  Can't remember where my current M.2 is on the board either.

So, this brings up another question.  Not speaking to which slots are active/inactive at this point in relation to SSD placement... in general, will the PC still recognize moving an M.2 from one spot to another?  I'm pretty sure I put my current M.2 in slot 1 (just can't see for sure).

Doesn't really matter the order of NVME. The OS drive can be in whatever NVME slot (you can swap boot drive priority in BIOS), etc. 
If it's the middle NVME port that is available, plug the new NVME drive there. If it's the top one available instead, same thing. 
So you're good.  

 But for those two 2.5" SSDs, you'll probably need to plug those on the SATA ports #2 and #3 (instead of #1 and #2 as you currently have them).

EDIT:  in your motherboard the SATA ports #2 and #3 are the ones marked yellow in this image:


I say this because this is what I gather from a quick diagonal read on your motherboard's manual:
- Using the first NVME slot (M2M, top one closest to the processor) affects SATA ports #4 and #5.
- Using the second NVME slot (M2A, middle one, closest to the top PCIe x16 for graphics card) affects SATA port #1.

Quoting from your motherboard's manual (see pages 33 and 34):  https://www.manualslib.com/manual/3094181/Gigabyte-Z390-Aorus-Master.html?page=33#manual

Quote

Installation Notices for the PCIEX4, M.2 and SATA Connectors:

Due to the limited number of lanes provided by the Chipset, the availability of the SATA connectors may be affected

by the type of device installed in the M2. sockets. The M2M connector shares bandwidth with the SATA3 4, 5

connectors. The M2A connector shares bandwidth with the SATA3 1; the M2P connector shares bandwidth with

the PCIEX4 connector.

Edited January 11 by LucShep
added image for SATA ports

[CL30]

13 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Doesn't really matter the order of NVME. The OS drive can be in whatever NVME slot (you can swap priority in BIOS), etc. 
If it's the middle NVME port that is available, plug the new NVME there. If it's the top one available instead, same thing. 
So you're good.

But for those two SATA SSDs, you'll probably need to plug those on ports #2 and #3, instead of #1 and #2.

This what I gather from a quick diagonal read on your motherboard's manual....
Using the top NVME slot (M2M, closest to the processor), affects SATA ports #4 and #5.
Using the second NVME slot (M2A, middle one, closest to the top PCIe x16 for graphics cards), affects SATA port #1.

Quoting from your motherboard's manual (see pages 33 and 34):  https://www.manualslib.com/manual/3094181/Gigabyte-Z390-Aorus-Master.html?page=34#manual

 

Thanks a lot, LucShep!  Reading that stuff makes my head hurt, lol.  That's very helpful.

[Dragon1-1]

One more thing: watch out for radiators. Looking at the board's layout, it's probably not going to be an issue, but some PCI 4.0 SSDs come with a huge chunk of aluminum attached on top. This may not go well with a slot that is close to the GPU. I had to return an M.2 SSD for this reason. A radiator is generally not of much use at PCI 3.0 speeds, anyway.

[Marshallman]

OK this has me pondering Somewhat...Delivery today will be  a 2TB Crucial P3 M.2 (22x80) PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe SSD, 3D NAND, Read 3500MB/s, Write 3000MB/s 7TY6N.

I have purchased this from Scan after talking to their Technical section yesterday.

Currently my C drive is a 500Gb Samsung Evo 860, which is full...... D drive a 1TB Samsung Evo 860 .  D drive holds DCS solely.

Plan is to replace the C drive with the new Crucial P3 M.2 and also drag DCS onto that, removing the original 500Gb C drive, and having DCS totally on the new C drive.

This PC is solely for DCS and Condor2 (3 shortly).

Motherboard is Asus B460M-A which will be the next upgrade on the PC.

Anyone seeing any problems here please? Also any tips for sequence of the above process will be greatly received.

Regards

Nimbus

 

 

[LucShep]

3 hours ago, Marshallman said:

OK this has me pondering Somewhat...Delivery today will be  a 2TB Crucial P3 M.2 (22x80) PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe SSD, 3D NAND, Read 3500MB/s, Write 3000MB/s 7TY6N.

I have purchased this from Scan after talking to their Technical section yesterday.

Currently my C drive is a 500Gb Samsung Evo 860, which is full...... D drive a 1TB Samsung Evo 860 .  D drive holds DCS solely.

Plan is to replace the C drive with the new Crucial P3 M.2 and also drag DCS onto that, removing the original 500Gb C drive, and having DCS totally on the new C drive.

This PC is solely for DCS and Condor2 (3 shortly).

Motherboard is Asus B460M-A which will be the next upgrade on the PC.

Anyone seeing any problems here please? Also any tips for sequence of the above process will be greatly received.

Regards

Nimbus

Your ASUS B460M-A motherboard manual mentions a particularity that you should take into account.

If NVME #1 is in use (in SATA mode), then the SATA slot #1 will be disabled, because they share bandwidth - see image below.

Regardless, I'd recommend to simply move the SATA plugged cable in SATA port #1 (if any is in use there) to another SATA port (#2, or #3, or #4), before placing the new NVME drive in its respective type slot #1 (aka M.2_1).  You can also try to place the new NVME drive in the other respective slot (#2, aka M.2_2).

Just remember to check in BIOS the boot drive priority, so that the drive you have with OS installed (one to be used with Windows) is given most priority.

Quote

The M.2_1 shares bandwidth with SATA6G_1. When M.2_1 runs SATA mode, SATA6G_1
will be disabled.

 

Edited January 11 by LucShep

[Marshallman]

Thankyou The Drive I'm removing is Sata slot 1...so this should work out nicely

 

footnote below nothing on the Socket 1

 

Edited January 11 by Marshallman

[Marshallman]

OK all done using Disc Genius!! thanks for your help!!!

Ironically the two sata's were installed on sockets 2 and 3

Last question please... Should DCS also be on the C drive?

 

Regards

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, Marshallman said:

OK all done using Disc Genius!! thanks for your help!!!

Ironically the two sata's were installed on sockets 2 and 3

Last question please... Should DCS also be on the C drive?

 

Regards

Was going to say, reading what you wrote before, it sounds as if you'd wind up with only one drive that contains both the OS (Windows) and DCS...that is, if I'm following your references to "C drive" indicating your OS install.

If that's the case, then I'd say no, you shouldn't have your games (any games, to include DCS) on the same drive as the OS/Windows if it's possible to avoid.

What I typically recommend is a two- or three-drive arrangement:

1. A small SSD (120-250G) for the OS (M.2/PCIe is preferred, SATA is acceptable)

2. Larger SSD, 500G+ (strong preference for M.2/PCIe if supported by system).

3. (if desired) A conventional SATA hard disk, 500G+ for older, slower games, movies, personal file storage. (Can use a SATA SSD here as well, depends on cost).

Having game(s) on separate drives is recommended because it eliminates 'resource contention' that is caused by having the game and OS trying to access the same physical drive at the same time (obviously someone winds up waiting even if only for a split second).

Edited January 11 by kksnowbear

[Marshallman]

45 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Was going to say, reading what you wrote before, it sounds as if you'd wind up with only one drive that contains both the OS (Windows) and DCS...that is, if I'm following your references to "C drive" indicating your OS install.

If that's the case, then I'd say no, you shouldn't have your games (any games, to include DCS) on the same drive as the OS/Windows if it's possible to avoid.

What I typically recommend is a two- or three-drive arrangement:

1. A small SSD (120-250G) for the OS (NVMe is preferred, SATA is acceptable)

2. Larger SSD, 500G+ (strong preference for NVMe if supported by system).

3. (if desired) A conventional hard disk, 500G+ for older, slower games, movies, personal file storage. (Can use a SATA SSD here as well, depends on cost).

Having game(s) on separate drives is recommended because it eliminates 'resource contention' that is caused by having the game and OS trying to access the same physical drive at the same time (obviously someone winds up waiting even if only for a split second).

Awesome, thankyou the missing link is now complete...I do have the game on a 1TB SSD separate from the new Windows M.2

[Dragon1-1]

I would recommend going with all-SSD setup, without a HDD. At this point, HDDs are fairly cheap, but they're slow and noisy, not to mention they're subject to mechanical wear. I got rid of mine and haven't looked back. 

[Beirut]

HDDs are still good for keeping a ton of movies and junk.

 

For SSDs and NVME drives, I'm all for Samsung because I like the cloning software.

[Biggus]

I'm currently shopping around to replace my main drive, a 500GB m.2 Samsung 860 Evo.  It's on a B450 motherboard so I don't really require more than PCIE 3.0 but I'm considering building a fresh system in a year or so, so I'm looking at PCIE 4 and 5 drives in the hopes that I can do a little future proofing for once..  One thing I've noticed is that there is a reasonable price difference between m.2 drives with DRAM and drives without.

I'm curious as to whether the DRAM-less drives are problematic for DCS.  I've seen at least one Hoggit post regarding a DRAM-less drive being the cause of one user's stutters, but these drives are so widespread that I'm wondering whether that was an outlier.  So can I get away with buying a DRAM-less drive as my main system drive which also has a DCS install on it?

[Marshallman]

1 hour ago, Biggus said:

I'm currently shopping around to replace my main drive, a 500GB m.2 Samsung 860 Evo.  It's on a B450 motherboard so I don't really require more than PCIE 3.0 but I'm considering building a fresh system in a year or so, so I'm looking at PCIE 4 and 5 drives in the hopes that I can do a little future proofing for once..  One thing I've noticed is that there is a reasonable price difference between m.2 drives with DRAM and drives without.

I'm curious as to whether the DRAM-less drives are problematic for DCS.  I've seen at least one Hoggit post regarding a DRAM-less drive being the cause of one user's stutters, but these drives are so widespread that I'm wondering whether that was an outlier.  So can I get away with buying a DRAM-less drive as my main system drive which also has a DCS install on it?

I tested the Crucial unit I have just fitted yesterday and the difference in speed is visibly noticable ( I only had 20Gb spare on the original 500Gb SSD).

So now I'm running main C drive.... 2TB Crucial P3 M.2 . As DCS grows in Maps etc, I will move this to being the sole DCS drive.

I am also buying ahead of the current PC specs to reduce impact for the accountant

DCS currently ... 1TB Evo SSD

Original drive now Spare drive 500GB Evo SSD (backup system for the time being)

Early days I know but if theres any change, I'll come back on and report it.

 

Regards

 

Edited January 12 by Marshallman

[Biggus]

Thanks @Marshallman.  I assume you mean that the Crucial P3 is noticably faster?  That's a good sign, it's one of the drives I'm considering.

[Dragon1-1]

7 hours ago, Beirut said:

HDDs are still good for keeping a ton of movies and junk.

Honestly, my main complaint was the noise. In my system, the loudest part is the water pump. All fans are 12 inch, turning just enough for the LEDs not to look silly. The thing is barely audible under a non-gaming load... except when it had a HDD, which would announce its presence with an audible *grink* *grink* from time to time. My dad uses a special cassette for suppressing the noise, but those require 8 inch bays, which my case doesn't have. I run two 2TB M.2 SSDs now and a small SATA one that I might upgrade if I ever need more capacity than that.

[LucShep]

8 hours ago, Biggus said:

I'm currently shopping around to replace my main drive, a 500GB m.2 Samsung 860 Evo.  It's on a B450 motherboard so I don't really require more than PCIE 3.0 but I'm considering building a fresh system in a year or so, so I'm looking at PCIE 4 and 5 drives in the hopes that I can do a little future proofing for once.. 

As said previously, there are benefits by using a Gen4 NVME even with motherboards that only support Gen3, like yours.

While in such case the Gen4 drive won't reach its capable full speeds, it will definitely run at the full speed of Gen3 - something very few Gen3 drives ever achieved.  

So, it doesn't compensate to buy a Gen3 drive at this point, when there's such a minor price difference to Gen4 ones today (it's worth getting the latter, always).
This is regardless of being used on next system (future proofing) or not.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, there's the new Gen5 drives that some feel tempted to invest in, but there is none worth the money right now.
Currently, it's just not for gaming/simming use, even if with newest hardware.
Could make sense in scenarios where you really need to make huge transfers at the highest possible read/write speeds - we're talking professional/commercial use case applications, and even here sometimes the higher prices won't justify.

Resuming -  get a Gen4 NVME, always and regardless.
 

8 hours ago, Biggus said:

One thing I've noticed is that there is a reasonable price difference between m.2 drives with DRAM and drives without.

I'm curious as to whether the DRAM-less drives are problematic for DCS.  I've seen at least one Hoggit post regarding a DRAM-less drive being the cause of one user's stutters, but these drives are so widespread that I'm wondering whether that was an outlier.  So can I get away with buying a DRAM-less drive as my main system drive which also has a DCS install on it?

It depends.

If this is to be a separate second (or third) drive for games and/or general storage, then it's perfectly fine (no issues), as the lack of DRAM in the drive won't be felt. 

But if this a drive to put the OS + DCS, then you should definitely avoid buying a ramless NVME - these are meant as a complementary drive.
Sure, these can be used as primary (and single) drive for "budget" oriented systems with less pretentious goals for gaming, but this isn't a system you'd idealize for DCS.

Well reknowned NVMEs with DRAM, such as the Samsung 990 Pro and 980Pro, WD SN850X, Corsair MP600 Pro XT, etc, are well worth paying, to be used as primary (OS) drive.
Especially if in case of single-drive based system (i.e, using just one NVME drive for everything), they always feel snappier (sometimes a lot more) and help immensely with (less) stuttering when using demanding games (such as DCS), where lots of data transfers and access speed, plus reads speeds, do matter for a smooth experience.
It makes sense in this case to have a good NVME with DRAM, because the OS and the game are sharing space and access, reads and writes happen at same time frequently.

Ideally, performance/price, for drive arrangement I find that one would want:

- a smaller capacity (250GB or more) fast Gen4 NVME with DRAM as primary drive (for OS and program files).
- a larger capacity (1TB or more) fast Gen4 NVME (which doesn't necessarily need to have DRAM, i.e, can be ramless) as separate drive for demanding games, such as DCS.
- a very large capacity drive (2TB or more) for regular storage (older games, downloads, music, movies, etc) where performance is not a concern - can be a SATA3 SSD or HDD. 

Edited January 12 by LucShep

[Biggus]

Thanks for the response, @LucShep.

My board can only accommodate a single M.2 device.  I currently have DCS on a pair of SATA3 SSDs (main folder on one, savegames on the other).  I think I'll find a DRAM-equipped drive.

[LucShep]

9 minutes ago, Biggus said:

Thanks for the response, @LucShep.

My board can only accommodate a single M.2 device.  I currently have DCS on a pair of SATA3 SSDs (main folder on one, savegames on the other).  I think I'll find a DRAM-equipped drive.

Yep, it makes sense in your case.
If using OS + DCS in same drive, the OS and the game are sharing space and access, reads and writes will be happening at same time frequently.
Get a good one with DRAM.

[Beirut]

3 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Honestly, my main complaint was the noise. In my system, the loudest part is the water pump. All fans are 12 inch, turning just enough for the LEDs not to look silly. The thing is barely audible under a non-gaming load... except when it had a HDD, which would announce its presence with an audible *grink* *grink* from time to time. My dad uses a special cassette for suppressing the noise, but those require 8 inch bays, which my case doesn't have. I run two 2TB M.2 SSDs now and a small SATA one that I might upgrade if I ever need more capacity than that.

 

I never noticed the noise. I have a fairly new 2TB HDD and it's somewhere between - I'm testing it now - zero noise and "I think I might have heard... something". Also, I tend to use headphones a lot. The only real reason for an HDD is cost, and if you have a ton of movies and junk to keep, you can't beat an HDD for price.