1 in 2 Sparrows doesn't track the target in STT

[MavOne96]

Hello,

I have recently flown the F14A on a Cold War server and to my surprise one in two Sparrows (whatever the variant P and M etc.) doesn't follow the target. I shoot the missiles within 7 miles to the target in PAL lock and the tracking rate was in my opnion too low around 50%.

Is this realistic or there is something I am missing or this is a bug/server issue?

Thank you.

[draconus]

How can we guess? Come with a track or tacview, we can talk then. Probable causes: chaff, notching, ECM, kinematic defeat, lag...

[WTFCSon]

When you say "tracking rate" do you mean "kill rate"? Or are the missiles truly not tracking at all once leaving the rail?

 

[WarthogOsl]

I would say that the Sparrows get chaffed about 50% of the time for me (this is from checking in TacView).  They guide just fine...until they suddenly don't.  I've just come to accept it.

[SparrowLT]

The same happens in the Hornet.. arround half of the Sparrows just go track something else behind the target or go fly free with other wild sparrows...

[Rudel_chw]

On 1/23/2024 at 11:02 AM, MavOne96 said:

Is this realistic

more or less …the real aim-7M had a hit rate of around 68% (source: https://flyandwire.com/2022/10/05/unsung-hero-the-aim-7-sparrow-part-i/

 

[QuiGon]

On 1/29/2024 at 8:51 AM, WarthogOsl said:

I would say that the Sparrows get chaffed about 50% of the time for me (this is from checking in TacView).  They guide just fine...until they suddenly don't.  I've just come to accept it.

Well, that's what chaff is supposed to do. Sparrows are more susceptible to chaff than more modern missiles like the AMRAAM.

[RustBelt]

The missile knows where it is because it knows where it isn’t. But with the Sparrow it doesn’t KNOW where the target is, only that the target isn’t where it is. Once it loses the target reference, like a gold fish, it has permanently forgotten there was a target, and where it would last have been. 
 

They got approximately smarter as time went on to attempt to re-acquire the signal. But were very limited. Almost Sidewinder level limited in sensor search patterns. A Radar can keep tracking a target, but the sparrow is un-able to look at it if it loses sight. So you’re still tracking, but the Missile lost the memo.
 

Making the sparrow smarter was basically making the AMMRAM there’s a reason they’re basically the same form factor. 

[Chaffee]

When you lose lock with the Sparrow, are you putting your nose in flood-mode parameters? (4 degrees left and right of the centerline; 30 degrees above, 5 degrees below).

Here's a handy diagram:

The AIM-7 is dumb. It needs your help. Help your Sparrow.

On 2/29/2024 at 5:55 PM, SparrowLT said:

The same happens in the Hornet.. arround half of the Sparrows just go track something else behind the target or go fly free with other wild sparrows...

In the Hornet, Flood Mode covers the same area as the AIM-7 reticle (see page 286 of the EA guide).

The missile depends a whole lot on pilot behavior with the radar, especially when it goes stupid.

Edited March 5 by Chaffee

[Kageseigi]

56 minutes ago, Chaffee said:

When you lose lock with the Sparrow, are you putting your nose in flood-mode parameters? (4 degrees left and right of the centerline; 30 degrees above, 5 degrees below).

Here's a handy diagram:

 

Very interesting! I'm curious. I've read that the F-15's radar can "flood" an area with a signal that causes RWR's to display active missile launches/guidance even without needing to fire a missile. Does the AWG-9's boresight/flood mode do the same thing? If so, are there any range limitations?

[Chaffee]

6 minutes ago, Kageseigi said:

Very interesting! I'm curious. I've read that the F-15's radar can "flood" an area with a signal that causes RWR's to display active missile launches/guidance even without needing to fire a missile. Does the AWG-9's boresight/flood mode do the same thing? If so, are there any range limitations?

RWR? I'm not sure how much flooding triggers that regarding active missile launches -- you're definitely emitting when in flood, and I'd assume what that looks like depends on the RWR -- But yes, the F-15C, F-14, F-18C (and F-15E is planned) can all flood to try to give guidance to AIM-7s, and I believe, at least in some cases, without having launched a missile, although I haven't done this.

Range limitations are above my security clearance

[QuiGon]

On 3/5/2024 at 10:08 AM, Kageseigi said:

Very interesting! I'm curious. I've read that the F-15's radar can "flood" an area with a signal that causes RWR's to display active missile launches/guidance even without needing to fire a missile. Does the AWG-9's boresight/flood mode do the same thing? If so, are there any range limitations?

In DCS you can manually command the F-15C's radar to flood mode, which does indeed cause a missile warning on other aircraft's RWRs (and even makes them dispense chaff/flare if they have set their CMS to auto mode). With the F-14 you can't manually command the radar to flood mode. It will activate on its own when conditions are met. Due to this restriction I've never tested if it triggers other aircraft's RWRs, but it should.

[Chaffee]

Back to the original post...

I just took out my handy F/A-18C against a variety of maneuvering targets, all hot, all AI. Generally launched at Mach 1.1 or so.

Launched TWS L&S to auto-STT on AIM-7 trigger actuation. Loft, small target, inside parameters but not always inside the MAR. Used the steering cue

8 for 9 on kills. My only miss was due to losing lock at the gimble limit.

Missile tracked and landed 100% of the time when I gave it the right support.
 

Edited March 7 by Chaffee

[Kageseigi]

18 hours ago, QuiGon said:

With the F-14 you can't manually command the radar to flood mode. It will activate on its own when conditions are met.

 

Indeed. Does anyone know what those conditions are specifically? According to the manual:

 

Quote

In addition to when launched in boresight mode the radar will also switch to flood mode when a target is lost, either before launch or after launch

 

I guess that two of those conditions could be to have the AIM-7 selected and also have boresight mode selected. But I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the above line...

It says "in addition to when launched in boresight mode," then continues to say that "the radar will also switch to flood mode when a target is lost, either before launch or after launch."

Does that mean that it will switch to flood mode in "normal" mode when a target is lost? I understand it working if the target is lost after the missile is launched in normal mode, but what does the "before launch" mean? The time between the trigger press and the actual launch during normal mode? Or after the trigger press and before the launch during boresight mode (which doesn't actually have a target to lose?)? Or it will simply enter flood mode when you select AIM-7 and boresight mode (being "before launch")?

And also, if the radar switches to flood mode after a target has been lost in normal mode, how long will the radar stay in flood mode?

Haha, so many questions! And here is another. Outside of flood mode, is there any way to get the AWG-9 to send a continuous wave/guidance frequency (whether it be through an STT lock or some other method) without having to actually launch a missile? Basically, to keep a target defensive through unceasing RWR active missile alerts? I suppose it would be the opposite tactic of using TWS: instead of launching a silent "stealth" missile, create a loud "phantom" missile. 

[Chaffee]

On 3/6/2024 at 7:45 PM, Chaffee said:

Back to the original post...

I just took out my handy F/A-18C against a variety of maneuvering targets, all hot, all AI. Generally launched at Mach 1.1 or so.

Launched TWS L&S to auto-STT on AIM-7 trigger actuation. Loft, small target, inside parameters but not always inside the MAR. Used the steering cue

8 for 9 on kills. My only miss was due to losing lock at the gimble limit.

Missile tracked and landed 100% of the time when I gave it the right support.
 

 

BTW, this was the AIM-7F, from 1976, not some fancy-pants '80s tech

My guess is that lots of Sparrow misses are based on the following factors:

1) User error. It's a difficult missile to use, and it requires you to put yourself in danger as well.
2) Server quality. I can't speak to this directly, but any amount of server fruit likely borks this thing and puts you into Flood Mode. For Flood Mode, see #1.
3) Humans are better at self-preservation (even virtual) than AI... none of my targets seemed particularly alarmed to get locked up and fired upon. They certainly aren't notching.

One thing I'm testing is Sparrow advantages... it doesn't have any, officially, but there are 2 things that could be good:

A) Your opponent is expecting AMRAAMs, which means a pitbull warning. SARH missile don't go pitbull. That's interesting.
B) On the F/A-18C, the AIM-7 uses a different wing pylon mount. Looks lower drag to me, so I'll test it.
C) A pair of AMRAAMs on the conformal mounts with a few Sparrows on the wings could make for a fast jet and a few surprises. Will test the drag and see.

Anyways, I find the AIM-7 to be a fun challenge that obviously has historical significance. It's not underperforming my expectations.

Edited March 8 by Chaffee

[draconus]

On 3/7/2024 at 3:45 AM, Chaffee said:

I just took out my handy F/A-18C...

It's all good and great but this is F-14 subforum. Different airframe and systems makes a difference, even when the same tactics apply and the missile is basically module independent.

[Chaffee]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

It's all good and great but this is F-14 subforum. Different airframe and systems makes a difference, even when the same tactics apply and the missile is basically module independent.

Fair enough. Apologies for mucking up the works.

[RustBelt]

On 3/7/2024 at 10:30 PM, Chaffee said:

1) User error. It's a difficult missile to use, and it requires you to put yourself in danger as well.

I mean, they had to put a Gun back on the F-4 because of this. It’s good, for a 1960’s value of good, but the Phoenix was made for the very reason that the Sparrow was limited by its primitive guidance. And the AMMRAM was made when they could fit a better system than the Phoenix in the Sparrow form factor that could talk to more radar systems.